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FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby zlsa » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Could everybody please just walk away from this?
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Johan G » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:26 am

I think it is about time I lock this topic and start removing negative statements about peoples dispositions.

I will leave this topic open for a little while further, and I encourage all of you to read through your own postings in this topic* (and some other) and (1) consider how consistent or inconsistent you are, (2) how your words may have come across to others, and (3) if you would like have to be treated like that by someone not sharing your view.

* This may be easier if you go to your profile page, look at your posts and search for the forum topic. This way you will not be distracted by other members posts.

In addition to that I want to state that I am definitively against any poll about banning any forum member. In this particular case it would also separate forum users into winners and losers, thus lessening the possibility that people may come to terms with each other one way or another. :|

It is my strong belief that the most of the conflicts here are misunderstandings that have been severely amplified by not assuming the other one had no ill intentions. As simple as that. :roll:
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:50 pm

One thing Johan, why does Thorsten have a model in 2009 when until recently, the Space Shuttle is only an FDM?
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Johan G » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:08 pm

Only Thorsten could answer that, but my guess is that he had a model that, while not working perfectly in all the mission phases, would serve as an bodily representation of the FDM. Being that it would maybe only work in orbit and possibly reentry he probably did not consider it worthy of inclusion in the FGData repository.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Thorsten » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:42 pm

One thing Johan, why does Thorsten have a model in 2009 when until recently, the Space Shuttle is only an FDM?


There were several public domain / GPL / GPL compatible 3d models posted in various forum threads and on the devel list over the years which resided in 3rd party hangars and never made it to FGData. I remember at some point gathering the lot of them on my harddisk so I'd have them available once FG is space-ready. Perhaps that is what you mean?

Truth is (as the linked thread shows) we had a 3d model of a shuttle quite a bit ago, and Gijs even had something that could launch into orbit. I'm not sure I had Gijs model at any time on my computer (I can't seem to find it right now), but yeah, I have several spacecraft 3d models and FDMs which never were officially committed.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby KL-666 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Maybe no one noticed, but this topic is called:

FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

There is very little discussed about this topic and very much about all sorts of problems people have with each other. Why not make separate topics about those like:
- When should someone be banned from a forum?
- The meaning of GPL
- The big "I feel done wrong" topic
- etc...

Now i would like to say something on topic.

From a practical point of view of a user it is often hard to get aircraft. When i encounter someone flying a plane i do not have in multiplayer, i want to download it to be able to see him. Seldom can i find the plane in the download section of the main site. Then i have to go through forums, search the internet, etc... Often with little success.

Now someone had the brilliant idea to try to grab all that individual developing in one website. Last time i had to download 4 planes at once, it was a relief to find them all on FGMEMBERS. Ready in minutes instead of hours.

The fgdata (or fgaddon) clearly is a subset of all developing going on. Resulting in scattered hangars everywhere. I think the (attempt to) unification of this mess is a good initiative. And i would recommend all developers that are working now in their own obscure hangar to get findable by becoming a fgmember.

Btw, i fail to see the reason why such initiative should cause an enormous debate. It is just something extra that hurts nobody. Has there ever been such a debate about fguk? (This is a rhetorical question, not to be answered with yet another debate)

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Thorsten » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:47 pm

Btw, i fail to see the reason why such initiative should cause an enormous debate


Maybe it'd help to simply read up the debate on the mailing list where all the pros and cons have been discussed ad nauseam - rather than to try to open it here.
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I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA Tour

Postby clrCoda » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:40 am

I repost this here because it started out originally as praise for the 35 leg of the USA tour, but ended up as a commentary about recent events. I do so because I believe this to be a relevant opinion for the majority to read, that might not otherwise read the USA Tour Thread. Thank you for obliging me my opinion. -- Ray
This was the best group flight I've been on in many years! Rivaled only by the 34th ( my first ) leg of this group event.

Transgear used to be good, and I remember it fondly. So what I'm about to say should not take anything away from those historical events.

There is a reason that this event set is superior.

This event set decides on a new plane class each flight, where as Transgear was mostly about airliners, which is fine.
Of each class, pilots pick a favorite plane to fly. Pilots tend to pick planes that work in the class, and work well, look good, operate properly... sometimes planes that pilots would not otherwise choose.

Other pilots have to install that plane to see it. Once the plane is installed, and you see an excellent pilot pilot that plane, it's better than an advertisement -- you now have the plane installed, and no excuse to not try it yourself. You also know who to ask if you have a question about the plane.


Part II
This is one of the "at least three" things of genius I believe that Israel has brought to flightgear.

Another is the method he has used to have JAFVA as a Virtual Airline.Having become the longest living member of the longest living Flightgear virtual airline I can tell you, I've seen them all, all come and go and some even come back...

The reason JAFVA is genius is because it doesn't do any of the things us traditional va's have done (with all the work that VA's creates for us) and it does all of the things it does right smack dab in the center of where people in flightgear tend to congregate. It's clean, simple, cheap to operate, and uses all of the best things of flightgear without being bogged down by exclusive liveries, or scenery, or schedules, or membership. Instead it is quite limber, shows off the best planes, liveries and scenery that Flightgear has to offer.

Part III
The third bit of genius is the new repo, but it's not genius because it adds or takes away anything from what has come before this new version control repository...
But because Israel has done the thing that most people have required from a repo version control and that has been to hold the hands of plane developers that might not know or have any experience with version control. The current repositories, the past and the present addition version control repositories all benefit from the instruction that Israel has provided. The "Hand Holding".

To say that the new repo represents anything else to flightgear would be a misrepresentation of the facts.

A single VCrepo could have done the same thing.

It was unfortunate that, in the understanding of many individuals participating in of some of the recent events that have come to transpire, seems to have culminated in some individuals, the thought that it might be necessary to maintain a second repository for version control. Version control being what it is: I reiterate, a single VCrepo could have done the same thing.

But now that it is here and populated it makes sense to me to use all of the repositories to advantage.

Personally, I don't care that "this guy did this and that guy said that". I ignore any and all of that. I have successfully raised my own children and they begin to have children of their own.

I believe a vast majority of the folks reading this forum regularly do ignore such nonsense. I believe a vast majority of the people reading this forum regularly would hate to see any individual banned. I also believe that a vast majority of the people reading this forum wouldn't mind if posts were stripped of hurtful statements, leaving only things that help the community.

Maybe I've overstepped my bounds, and maybe I have spoken for a majority that does or does not exist. And I have certainly said this in the wrong place. What I would like to see is all of this good put to excellent use and any personal issues put aside.

The kids hate it when mom and dad fight.
--Ray
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Thorsten » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:59 am

Why appeals to leave personal issues aside fail in some cases because conflict is often not for the sake of conflict but about real issues:

Let me give you another example to see why this isn't working. I take 100 $ from you. You shout: 'Gimme back my money!' We argue. Someone comes into the room and says: 'Guys, you really shouldn't argue, this is bad for the community.' And I say: 'Yeah, there's really no need to argue, let's resolve this peacefully.' And the other person says: 'Hey, I have an idea - why don't each of you take 50 $ and we're done?'

Do you think this is a good idea, or do you think you should have your 100 $ back, because it actually matters to judge the incident who is the rightful owner?


(Repost from FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.)

I know it's easier to say 'I don't care that this guy said that and that'. Well, picture yourself on the receiving end - and everyone tells you 'I don't care'. Doesn't work. Often bad things happen when good people can't be bothered to care.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby clrCoda » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:18 am

no one in this case is trying to give you 50% of the nothing they have taken from you.

A re-framing of the picture is clever, but the picture remains.

-- my best to you. Ray.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Thorsten » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:26 am

Ignore the real issues as long as you want, as long as they're not solved, the conflict won't disappear. Looking away won't make it go away.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby clrCoda » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:38 am

I did say I tend to ignore... Yes, I can see where you might latch on to that idea. No, This is not ignorable. That may have been an unfortunate turn of phrase. This is in our faces, and now daily. We the (mostly) silent majority are looking for the bigger men to turn towards productive, helpful conversation.

Noone, no one, not one person can take from you the genius you have provided to this community. Please have faith that we the readers who know you we know who you are and the good you have done. ALL of you that have done good. We see it.

There is no need to defend your excellence when it is obvious to the community.

The 'most of us' are at a loss for words that could correct this issue.

No, the only thing that will make it disappear is forgiveness. The one thing that will return the functionality and the ability for the participants to freely operate together is going to have to be to let the posts already in record speak for themselves even as the posters find ways to speak to each other with respect.

It's time to move on fellas.
-- With my undying respect.
Ray
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby sanhozay » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:44 am

Thorsten,

If IH-COL withdrew his comment about you abusing the GPL by forking the Space Shuttle, would that be your $100 back?
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby Thorsten » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:23 am

It's not primarily about me, and it's not primarily about that comment which is destructive and a problem. It's the continuous repetition of Claims that need debunking in combination with strong wording and personal attacks ('clear abuse' - 'tyranny' - 'censorship' -...)

I don't think anyone has an issue with the existence of FGMEMBERS - it's a fork, GPL permits forking, and there's really all there is to say - the decision to have FGAddon in its form has been made, and the decision to have FGMEMBERS has been made and it's time to accept it. Casting this into the form of freedom vs. tyranny in many forum posts based on flawed evidence is divisive. I personally think the existence of two parallel infrastructures is doing more harm than good, but I don't write this into every post.

What I see in the forum is that several minor incidents are taken out of context, blown way out of proportion in the telling by a group of people, used to create a general atmosphere of hostility against the developers, and afterwards the same group of people who created the situation (= took the 100$) appeals to community spirit and says we really shouldn't argue (= everyone gets 50$ and we're fine, okay?)

I think once that stops, the reaction to it will also be absent. If you believe in FGMEMBERS, do it quietly, save the rhetorics of 'killing' or 'slaughtering' FGAddon for a different mailing list.

As Curt has pointed out, there's no reason why people who so fundamentally disagree with the project decisions have to use project infrastructure - they can create their own.
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Re: I hate it whem mom and dad fight. A repost from the USA

Postby sanhozay » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:21 am

I think that's accurate.

As far as FGMEMBERs is concerned, the project had parallel infrastructures in the form of hangars long before FGADDON existed: Lake of Constance, Omega, FGUK, PAF, ViveFG, plus various git repositories. In my view, FGADDON is, and should be, the controlled repository where aircraft have high standards of realism. Unfortunately, FGADDON does suffer from quantity over quality.

The existence of hangars suggests that some people want to develop aircraft in a different way, perhaps with less restrictions and a focus on getting something flyable rather than being as realistic as possible. If, after all the strife, FGMEMBERs ends up as a centralized development hangar where (a) pilots can find flyable versions of unmaintained aircraft in one place and (b) aircraft developers can collaborate more freely on projects, that will be a good thing. Especially if it breeds a new generation of aircraft developers that start contributing to FGADDON.
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