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FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby legoboyvdlp » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:49 pm

Yeah. Unfortunately, Lesters planes can only be got via FGMEMBERS (git or .zip) or mediafure.
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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby chris_blues » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:10 pm

too bad... :cry:

I hate those one way roads...
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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby LesterBoffo » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:59 am

I really don't want to go political now, but I feel I have to. So, please don't let this come to an argument about this (because I apreciate your response and pointers); but:
fgmembers is still a hostile fork of fgaddon, still not giving anything back to the FGcommunity (read fgaddon). We had this (bad) discussion on the devel list last year or so, which resulted in fgmembers. And all that happened is a pull from fgaddon and zero feedback from fgmembers.


Chris I don't understand why this is a problem? I don't see it as a one way road. :?

I started my BVAO aerodrome long before FGMEMBER's became prevalent, as a FlightGear way to share some of the wonderful content from the old patched Activision combat flight sim Screamin' Demons over Europe's WWI Patch; Fighter Squadron WWI.

I developed content for them, so a portion of what I made for release from FS-WWI is my own 3D work, with some textures and shared objects. I got permission to use this content from the various authors and artists of FS-WWI, and to release the art with my modifications under a Creative Commons, non-commercial use EULA and with a mention in the Splash about the FS-WWI Sim, artists, and forum.

None of the authors in FS-WWI made a dime off of their work, and I think it's only fair to not release this as GPL in respect of their work. In respect to the use clause, your concern is neither here nor there. I could have easily just left these as downloads exclusively from my Mediafire repo. I feel that FGMEMBERS would be an easier way for GIT users to access my work. FG in the past has had CC content from private hangars, if this is an issue about the use licensing?

JIMO, I feel there has been too much bad blood about this whole kerfluffle from both sides, I understand Israel and J-Wocky's frustration, but it's not my place to judge their decisions.
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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:37 am

I don't see it as a one way road.


How so?

Let's leave aside the fact that the FGMEMBERS organizers have several times stated their goal to put FGAddon out of business (I seem to remember words like 'slaughter' being used) for the moment and ask the simple question - when has something ever come back so far?

As far as I am aware, it's just FGMEMBERS taking content.

I know you all want to see it as your most convenient airplane distribution channel and not look at the somewhat ugly political subtext, but I think Chris has the measure of it just right.
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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby Johan G » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:07 pm

That might be expressed a bit harsh, though for sure they have expressed in various ways that they would work towards replacing FGAddon with FGMEMEBERS, some of them not recognizing FGAddon as the official aircraft repo.

Thorsten wrote in Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:37 am:As far as I am aware, it's just FGMEMBERS taking content.

I am quite sure there is at least some original work there.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Hooray » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:14 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Sat May 09, 2015 1:41 am:Hooray ...

You shouldn't try to twist my words around, Hooray. The fact that you sometimes try manipulative games doesn't mean you are good at it ... actually you are rather embarrassing when you try.


I wasn't trying anything like that, beyond just making a point that is not at all specific to your persona. So there's no twisting of words and no manipulative games involved at all:

posting.php?mode=reply&f=42&t=26043#pr242159
Hooray wrote in Sat May 09, 2015 1:17 am:
Jabberwocky wrote in Fri May 08, 2015 8:52 pm:However, I preserve the right to determine to where I post my work which implicitly determines from where you can copy it. That's only fair.
Now back to my plane in work ...


which kinda proves the point of the whole discussion - simply because it is also up to you whether you are willing to maintain your work in other, 3rd party places/hangars, or not - as well as being your decision whether you want to collaborate with others using/re-using your work for other purposes, including possibly those that may compete/conflict with your own idea of future development, such as using a different FDM engine, different 3D model etc - or even making changes that may be/become incompatible with your own efforts, no matter that is in terms of code/XML or the infrastructure you're using, or the degree of end-user support you are willing to provide.


I think that this thinking also applies to most long-time contributors, but most of us have seen to many failed attempts at alternate infrastructure (think other websites, wikis, issue trackers, forums, hangars etc) - with most of those having not just "failed", but also ended up losing valuable content.

Personally, I don't mind the "competition" at all - in fact, some serious competition could actually be healthy for the project as a whole, and maybe help some of us to "get our act together" (looking at things where we've got plenty of room for improvement). But so far, I haven't seen anything that would prove (or even just suggest) that "fgmembers" could be such "competition".

I have participated in at least a dozen FG related "resources" over the years, including other websites/forums, and there's only 2-3 of these still available (but dormant/abandoned). And in most cases, my postings/contributions can no longer be accessed easily.

Admittedly, the FG project is far from perfect, and there are things that are pretty frustrating (e.g. think forum/wiki downtime) - but with "official" infrastructure I know at least that there are long-timers like Curt, Gijs, Torsten or James who are probably going to be around 5-10 years from now, when most of us will have moved on to greener pastures already.

To make another point, I used to contribute possibly useful stuff by editing the wiki and by keeping public gitorious repos/branches in sync with related work - since the shutdown of gitorious, I have yet to find the time to update all those articles (links) and provide a mirror of those topic branches - which is very annoying, and I am pretty grateful that I am not involved in maintaining any "critical" infrastructure myself (think forum/wiki, release schedule, build server ec) - because that would become very frustrating quickly, given the number of "consumers" (end-users) vs. "producers" (contributors, those whose contributions end up shaping FG).
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby LesterBoffo » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:22 pm

It saddens me that this has become charged with so much divisive talk.

While I agree that we should go forward with the FG project, I also think that what is happening here is that there has been a few folks that have stopped and questioned the pretext of development for the sake of a 'progress' that causes the FG project to limit the participation, either due to EULA's, the user's chosen repository, or to OS, and (or) user's machines capabilities.

That is not what comes to mind when one thinks holistically about progress, and I disagree with the representation of FG's 'Bazaar' use model as having a rigid hierarchy.

There is also a part of the reaction, ( with good cause from my own understanding.) against what is seen as a continued gatekeeper role for content into the 'official' development of the sim by changing the core coding to exclude un-official content.

Johan did an interesting study about the number of downloads of various types of FG. PC Windows users dominate, also considering the demographics of his research, that a good portion of these users are also on either Win7 32 bit or even Win XP.

I also notice that older versions of FG are still available. Is there plans to remove them in an effort to control the hierarchy of the 'bazaar'?

I'd also would request Thorsten to consider when discussing his differences with fgmembers that he at least, when 'quoting' what was said, in hind-sight, that the context of the discussion be remembered. There have been shots fired across the bows from both sides.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Hooray » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:36 pm

PC Windows users dominate, also considering the demographics of his research, that a good portion of these users are also on either Win7 32 bit or even Win XP.


With regard to Windows/32-bit users forming a major share of the FlightGear end-user community, it is worth keeping in mind that this is unfortunately not where our manpower is - not just referring to developers/contributors, but even just "testing" - i.e. people wiling/able to spend time testing/troubleshooting FG and bothering enough to file bug reports.

The number of Windows-based contributors, and especially developers - or even just those building from source, familiar with git and able to apply patches, is extremely low.

Most of this used to be shouldered by FredB, and more recently by F-JJTH. Recently, there no longer is a dedicated Windows core developer as far as I can tell. Some core developers (e.g. Zakalawe) have stated that they did purchase hardware specifically for testing FG on Windows - others are using virtualization (think VMWare) for the same purpose. But that doesn't quite replace the need for thorough testing by end-users actually using Windows on a daily basis.

So while it is admittedly unfortunate, the number of Windows end-users is at least inversely proportional to those among us, able to patch/build and test FG on Windows.

At the end of the day, this also to be expected, because Windows users are much more likely to be consumers of software than being actively involved in testing/developing software.

As far as I can tell, there also aren't many Windows-based contributors around currently, I think even poweroftwo mentioned that he was using VMWare for building FG/osgEarth on Mac OSX. Otherwise, he would probably be one of the main candidates for helping with testing on Windows.

People wanting to help improve things over time are encourage to get involved in helping test RCs (release candidates), as well as nightly builds - and actually get involved in the issue tracker to report any issues they may find.

People with a background/interest in software development (patching, git, building from source) are encouraged to check out the mxe effort, documented at: http://wiki.flightgear.org/Building_Fli ... _Compiling

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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:52 pm

I'd also would request Thorsten to consider when discussing his differences with fgmembers that he at least, when 'quoting' what was said, in hind-sight, that the context of the discussion be remembered.


Ah. You don't think that Israel and JW would actually want what they said and just said so because it was a heated discussion? Alas, I've seen a fair share of the behind the scenes exchanges, including the one-sided insults leveled at many core developers, and I know better.

I believe you're choosing to look away and opting to not see all the unpleasant things I mentioned for the sake of your convenience, and attributing everything to 'my' differences allows you to do that, but that will not make my points go away. But do as you please.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Lydiot » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:57 pm

LesterBoffo wrote in Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:22 pm: I'd also would request Thorsten to consider when discussing his differences with fgmembers that he at least, when 'quoting' what was said, in hind-sight, that the context of the discussion be remembered. There have been shots fired across the bows from both sides.


In general, if one cares about an honest discussion, one should quote with context and with the source attributed clearly. Fortunately the quote function easily provides us with clickable links, so I see absolutely zero reason not to use them.
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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:20 pm

Hooray wrote in Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:14 pm:...But so far, I haven't seen anything that would prove (or even just suggest) that "fgmembers" could be such "competition".



And that's great!
Cause, FGMEMBERS does not try to be such competition.

FGMEMBERS host planes that work and are to be used within Flightgear fligth simulator. Without FGFS as the core-engine, those aircraft are of much less use. FGMEMBERS enjoys all progress, advances, improvements, and releases that the core developers make while generously dedicating so much of their own times. Nothing but a big thanks for creating, and keeping (in my opinion) the best OpenSource flight simulator available out there.

I've seen some attempts of competitors of FGFS sometimes, but none of those efforts had picked my attention, as I keep flying and enjoying Flightgear, in a very regular basis, with my friends, in events such as the USA Tour, JAFVA, BVFAO, and the Flightgear Festivals.
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What/Where did you fly today? - Part 2

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:34 pm

Thorsten wrote in Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:37 am:
How so?

Let's leave aside the fact that the FGMEMBERS organizers have several times stated their goal to put FGAddon out of business (I seem to remember words like 'slaughter' being used) for the moment and ask the simple question - when has something ever come back so far?


:!:

Not quite.
When I joined the mailing list, I did so invited by Gijs, to attempt at inviting the core developers to change the SVN FGADDon for the purely git system that FGMEMBERS provides.

In my book centralized development is not a great deal for OpenSource development.

Regardless of my perception, the core developers of flightgear feel ease and safe under centralized paradigms. Which is not only evident of the headache that FGMEMBERS proposal created, but also on how you guys manage "core-commiter" concepts in git repositories, such as Flightgear, and simgear, among others. Basically, much of the "merit-able" core developers are blind-sided into subversion type of development concepts. And that is something I can't change.

Since, thus the core developers rejected the idea of fully replacing FGAddon with FGMEMBERS, we have never engaged in a competition or an attempt to make SVN dissappear. We understand and know of the existence of the monolithic subversion repository (18+ GB) for a subset of FG aircrafts, and understand that some developers are encapsulated to develop there. With that in mind, we just monitor their development, and a cronjob rebases their advances into FGMEMBERS modular aircraft repositories.

It is not that complex of a concept. but well... I can't make Thorsten understand it. (prob. Personal limitations, and a surprising need of his to engage in personal conflict -- as oppose to rationalize ideas while respecting the other)

Therefore, I repeat, FGMEMBERS does not try to slaughter, or be aggressive with FGAddon, while on the contrary, evidence can be given to the fact that we do copy and respect as valid and important, all contributions occurring in that repository --in spite that I am philosophically opposite to their developing pyramidical paradigms, and false pretenses of meritocracy.

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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby KL-666 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:11 pm

Maybe a lot of bad words have been spoken on the mailing list. I was not there. But it might be possible to leave that alone, and see it from an outsider perspective like me.

I see an initiative that can go alongside fgaddon for a while and prove itself useful to everybody, or not. Just bury the warrior axe for a while and see and choose later. Do not let old hurts overwhelm the future.

Btw, for an outsider it looks rather silly that this debate goes on and on, while nothing is proven yet.

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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby chris_blues » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:49 pm

I deleted my post, because I think this topic has been stretched too far already. My post could have only put gasoline into the fire...

Thx, Johan, for the hint!

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Re: FGAddon vs. FGMEMBERS, bus factors etc.

Postby Lydiot » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:25 pm

WTF?

I opened the thread "Where did you fly today?" like I often do, and find a post whining about this "fork", and then I read the post before this one which is complaining about a person fighting his "little war". I mean, talk about irony!

If you feel the need to stick your head into a thread that has nothing to do with this stuff and complain then you should know that you you're looking at least as guilty of fighting a little war as the person you accuse. I find this all very unbecoming and tedious. Of course, I'm neither a developer light (TM) or a core-developer, so what do I know.... other than what I just said; it's tedious, unbecoming and looks totally petty.
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