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How the project works

Questions about the FlightGear organisation, website, wiki etc.

Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:18 pm

Some 'merit' coming your way I think.
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Re: How the project works

Postby dg-505 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:13 pm

Don't really care about that, just stating facts
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Re: How the project works

Postby stuart » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:21 am

Hi All,

I've split this discussion and moved a discussion about forks here: https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30362

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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:13 am

Because Curt & dg-505 implying that some people should be on the ignore list of a forum is an on topic response

Sure it is.....

Blatant biased moderation Stuart.... Shame on YOU !
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Re: How the project works

Postby stuart » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:54 am

D-ECHO's question is a pretty clear point to split the topic, as the posts after that point are on that subject.

There's not a clear point to split it any earlier. If I split it any earlier, I think it would need to be before your post here about meritocracy: https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=15267#p293718, as the comments after that point (including ignore lists) are directly related to that post (including the one about "merit coming your way" which raised a smile). I didn't want to split it at that point both because I think your view on this was on-topic.

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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:41 pm

But between the 2 of them, curt and dg-505 it's a personal attack on both Lydiot and myself and completely off topic..... surely you see this...

Under those circumstances and the rules of this forum to be even handed you have to moderate curts post and delete dg-505 and my response.
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Re: How the project works

Postby Hooray » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:01 pm

why would it be an attack to point out that a minority of people around here are responsible for most of the arguments taking place here ?
To see for yourself, you could add the corresponding to your ignore list ;-)
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:09 pm

Hooray wrote in Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:01 pm:why would it be an attack to point out that a minority of people around here are responsible for most of the arguments taking place here ?
To see for yourself, you could add the corresponding to your ignore list ;-)


Well because it takes two sides to have an argument, so it's clearly biased if you only single out one side of the arguments participants.

If you and a few others stopped treating people that post on FGMEMBERS forum as pariahs and participants in a hostile fork, by deleting posts or out of context quoting. Then there'd be very few arguments and there'd be no need for my signature allowing me to go back to my original.

But whilst there's a need for me to speak out against the bullying I will do.

Simon
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:14 pm

In the past both Curt and Hooray have accused me of being 'brain washed' by the FGMEMBERS creators to do their dirty work for them here...

But if a moderator from here is going to be allowed to go to FGMEMBERS forum and quote from it in an out of context manner, surely it is very obvious I'm not being brain washed but am in fact reacting to the manner in which I'm being treated here...

Deny it as much as you want, but the root of the problem is the meritocracy model that's abused used here
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Re: How the project works

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:18 pm

And because this hasn't been quoted by a moderator here from FGMEMBERS I'll do it...

I wrote on there

Some time back I was contacted by a respected person of the forum, asking that I not defend myself against Thorsten in his topic.

I asked then that in his opinion is was all right for Thorsten to denigrate me in this topic, his reply was.

To be frank, I have very little interest in this type of problem, my main concern is about developing the [insert plane type here]


Interestingly it was soon his turn for the eye of Thorsten to fall on.... And he's no longer a contributor to Flightgear.

Is there a moral here I wonder ?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me
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Re: How the project works

Postby wlbragg » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:30 pm

Bomber wrote in Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:18 pm:
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me

Seriously, that is the cause of the treatment you deserve.
These people are pursuing a hobby that they enjoy. They created a tool to pursue that hobby. Like minded people joined their pursuit of that hobby. Over time they learned to trust in each others skills and opinions and formed a community that for the most part get along and move the pursuit of their hobby forward.

No one is coming after you, you are free to come and go as you please. In fact it is quite the reverse, you and others are coming after them because you don't like the way they pursue their hobby.
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Re: How the project works

Postby Thorsten » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:05 am

In the past both Curt and Hooray have accused me of being 'brain washed' by the FGMEMBERS creators to do their dirty work for them here...


Please post a link to any post using the word 'brainwash' applied to you because I can't really recall that happening.

Interestingly it was soon his turn for the eye of Thorsten to fall on.... And he's no longer a contributor to Flightgear.

Is there a moral here I wonder ?


Yeah, that with enough imagination, you can make any conspiracy theory work.

I have about as much moderation rights in the forum or on the mailing list as you - none. I have about as much admin rights on the repositories as you do - none.

So we might equally blame you for contributors leaving or coming...

Edit: See, the really nice thing about conspiracy theories is - it doesn't have to make a lot of sense at all. For instance, you can read in Stuart's profile that he's from Edinburgh. Now, we all know that this is in Germany, so he must be an order-obeying, 'Achtung'-screaming, freedom-hating German,... - heck, wait a minute - that's in... Scotland. We all know the Scots habitually hate freedom, right? Oh no, there was this movie with Mel Gibson, 'Braveheart' - they're actually the independent minded, freedom-loving folks... And then there's Curt from Minneapolis - surely that is in Germany, so he's a freedom-suppressing, Kraut-eating... Wait - that's in the US! Land of the free and home of the brave. But surely I must be... wait a sec - I actually live in Finland - first country to introduce vote for women in Europe. Number one in the Freedom House score table 2016 with a whopping 100% - it doesn't get any more freedom-loving than that!

How could this go so wrong? Such a nice analogy you've been dreaming up!

But surely someone who calls himself 'Bomber' in a forum must be a nice person, always ready to reach out... wait a sec - 'Bomber' - that's the planes which drop all the nasty stuff from the sky. Kill civilians by the score. Destroy cities... Maybe, you know, that's not freedom-loving at all...

Rant over.

See how you can spin any yarn out of loose analogies of anything with anything? That's what conspiracy theories do.
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Re: How the project works

Postby Hooray » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:42 am

I don't exactly know how/why this is allowed to continue here - anyway, I also don't recall using the terms "brain-washed", or even just paraphrasing what is going on - however, it does ring a bell that a number of highly-skilled contributors end up in the fgmembers team out of dissatisfaction with the fgfs project and that they are doing a disservice to their own reputation and track record.

And I can somewhat relate to that: at some point I was also considering to get an account over there, back when I disagreed with certain matters - but eventually, the fgmembers team ("free speech forum") disqualified themselves, because their tactics were much worse than anything I have seen here in over a decade (which still is not to say that we are necessarily doing such a great job here).

Under different circumstances, the fgmembers team could very well have provided an alternate environment to work with FlightGear and contribute to it (or an actual fork of it) - just look at the number of highly-talented contributors who are fed up with fgfs and its community for one reason or another (think i4dnf, vitos etc) - if fgmembers had actively tried to provide an environment to accommodate, and cultivate, such contributions/contributors, it might have actually endagered the way this forum/community works, and challenged the status quo.

But what has been happening instead is that they put themselves into a position that is hardly attractive even if you belong to the camp of people who have a track record of regularly disagreeing with "the establishment" around here (and yeah, I am generally considered by most people, and standards, to be a PITA myself, so I kinda know what is so appealing about having an alternate environment, that works according to your own rules and agenda).

Conceptually, fgmembers could have worked - certainly on technical grounds (git vs svn), however apart from poor timing, there was exceptionally poor decision making, and questionable tactics, so that I highly doubt that it will be able to persist unless it goes through a major change - absent that, most people will hardly consider it relevant, simply because of the personalities and tactics involved.

Anyway, an alternate framework for contributing to FlightGear, and to help pool contributions that were never committed/integrated for one reason or the other, may actually turn out to work fairly well - especially in the light of the growing number of patches that never make it back into the project - but from where I am standing, fgmembers is lacking everything that would make it a solid foundation for such an experiment - it is literally built on quicksand and causes too many challenges; which is not to say that FlightGear is "perfect", it's just a safer environment to contribute in - for the time being, fgmembers mainly seems like a pool of people that are attracted to it because they disagree with the way the main project works, and their actual track record is becoming marginal in comparison to the disagreements we've been seeing - which is a pity, but certainly not because people have been "brain-washed".
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Re: How the project works

Postby Thorsten » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:33 am

if fgmembers had actively tried to provide an environment to accommodate, and cultivate, such contributions/contributors, it might have actually endagered the way this forum/community works, and challenged the status quo.


Hardly, because you see, there's a pattern.

1) someone (call him Bertram) arrives with a grand vision how FG would be better that requires lots of other people to change their strategy and/or do additional work (a repository based on GIT submodules, combat and damage integration into FG, a spaceflight capable MP system and default rendering engine,...)

2) arguments are exchanged discussing the technical merits of the proposal, the interest within the developer community, the feasibility - during these arguments, Bertram refuses to take any objections or arguments into account and insists that his original proposal is perfect as it stands

3) the developer community ultimately rejects the proposal, usually in the form of refusing to do any work to implement it, sometimes more directly in the form of not committing a patch etc,

4) Bertram is outraged and spends years in the forum spreading discontent, lamenting endlessly about how his proposal has been rejected,...

Sounds familiar?

The problem is that Bertram doesn't have the ability to compromise, work with what's available, build from there - he's in for the grand scheme or nothing. The problem is of course that if you do your own project, it works, but it doesn't combine into another collaborative effort - there's just no community anywhere where all developers drop what they've been doing and work on Bertram's project instead as he expects.

An alternative project couldn't give Bertram what he wants either - ten Bertrams unhappy with FG don't equate a common goal except being against FG.
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Re: How the project works

Postby daweed » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:41 am

As i understand here, Bertam never had a chance to be listen ... seems that decision have been made because it was a Bertram proposal and not because of the technical stuff (That what i understand here)
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