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Discussing aircraft status's

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Discussing aircraft status's

Postby HHS » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:04 am

Mogthor wrote: If a tool like this (like planemaker) was developed the number of airplane devs would increase exponentially.


skyop wrote: You have to remember that FlightGear has an ENORMOUS (300+) amount of aircraft available, a huge number of which is abandoned and/or in an unpresentable state. We don't need more aircraft, we need people to start fixing up the ones we already have.


Right, the number increased, mostly by one single french man, who thinks to have to put every single fart into GIT, even if the aircraft doesn't has the standard-six and a correct fdm.
And this indeed makes FlightGear looks bad compared to the commercial sims, though FlightGear is able to do so much more and better. I don't want hundreds of bad aircrafts, I prefer fewer but high qualitity ones.

Better, easier to use tools for tuning autopilot would help a lot.
Modules of different aircraft systems like hydraulics, electric systems, (Syd's electrical nasal-files are already quite good to use)and other subsystems, which are easy to put together and though able to represent the systems of a specific aircraft correct and accurate!

The tool proposed by Darkstar would even be quite educational- you can easy see how different things influence the flight behaviour: what happens if the CoG is to far away? What happens with different incidences?

At least I'm happy to see that some aircrafts has developed to a stunning state: P51D, IAR80, MIG15BIS, A380.....
I hope this will go on for other aircrafts!
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby Toanphuc » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:29 pm

Well we can think that Helijah do the base start ( the basic 3d model,fdm etc) and if you want to improve you can improve in specific file, also cause he always update his work on Git so you can easily keep track and improve those aircraft,it better support for the team work way so many can do many aspect.
A good flight sim is not to make people feel fly easier but to make them feel fly is as real as it get.
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby HHS » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:50 pm

Toanphuc wrote:Well we can think that Helijah do the base start ( the basic 3d model,fdm etc) and if you want to improve you can improve in specific file, also cause he always update his work on Git so you can easily keep track and improve those aircraft,it better support for the team work way so many can do many aspect.

And how many of them have been improved?

And he updates his hangar as well, for those who don't have GIT.

I can understand that he is very keen on modelling aircrafts, and he would like to see his favourite and interesting aircrafts in FGFS- as we all do as well!
But quantity isn't qualitity, and currently we don't have the manpower to improve all 100+ aircrafts he put into GIT.
Really a lot of helijah's aircrafts are just the exterior and a simple, quick made fdm and I think they don''t need to be included into GIT.
Only few are really high qualitity which I really enjoy like the DR400, AirCrane and the Aluette II

But that's just my opinion
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby Armchair Ace » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:11 pm

Well, the SEPECAT Jaguar and the Short Sterling are being improved by members of FGUK (that includes me!), and you helped improve the 727-2(xx) model in his hangar. I think it's a good thing that Helijah mass produces aircraft. He lays the foundations upon which great models can be made. Instead of complaining, I think we should appreciate the work that he does.

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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby HHS » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:34 pm

Armchair Ace wrote:Well, the SEPECAT Jaguar and the Short Sterling are being improved by members of FGUK (that includes me!),


Hey, that are great news! :D
and you helped improve the 727-2(xx) model in his hangar.

Not quite, that's my model, I only used some instruments and the wheels from one of his model. I hope to replace the instruments with some more proper ones next year...

I think it's a good thing that Helijah mass produces aircraft. He lays the foundations upon which great models can be made. Instead of complaining, I think we should appreciate the work that he does.

~Tom

His mass productions increased the overall size of the aircraft package- with aircrafts which most of them looks abandoned with some exceptions.
It is nice that he models a lot of aircrafts, and gives others more or less the possibility to improve it. But some developers agrees to me when I say, that they don't have all to be in GIT.
I can already hear the complaints of new users with next relase about the many, many unfinished aircrafts. That's the problem.
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby SkyWlf77 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:54 pm

Well, HHS, this all goes back to what I have said at least 3 times now that no one seems to be interested in implementing: We need to set standards for "Alpha", "Beta" and "Production" designations and we need to determine a minimum level of standard for inclusion into GIT. Those that don't meet the GIT standard would need to be hosted elsewhere. Only when these standards are created and applied can we truly determine what aircraft are in what state, have the tags updated in their XML files and keep from ending up with a huge aircraft package of unfinished models in the base package (which I agree with you, will definitely reflect poorly on FlightGear).

Unfortunately, unless the powers-that-be get behind something like what I have suggested above, it'll never happen and we'll continue to have this problem.

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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby Armchair Ace » Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:56 pm

I can already hear the complaints of new users with next relase about the many, many unfinished aircrafts. That's the problem.


Ah, yes. I suppose that's a concern that needs to be addressed - one can only hope that maybe 1 out of 20 people who complain then go on to try and improve the aircraft. The other thing might be to ask Helijah to go through a brief checklist before adding an aircraft to GIT. (Standard 6, check, landing Gears properly animated, check, etc)

~Tom

Addendum : Maybe we should set those standards here, now!

... but how shall we set those standards? Shall we have minimum criteria that need to be satisfied for an aircraft to qualify as Alpha, Beta, etc, or shall we h¥do things another way?

For Beta, I suppose the minimum standards could be

-Standard Six Instruments?
-Animations?
-Proper FDM? (Are thrust reversers implemented? Are speedbrakes implemented? Does the plane fly through the ground if the gear is up? (If yes, then the aircraft has failed the test)
-Textured 3D Model?
(and so on)
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby SkyWlf77 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:27 pm

I was thinking more along the lines of developing a chart or spreadsheet. Each function of the aircraft would be given four options (for example: Cockpit - None [0 points], 6 instruments functional [1 point], All instruments functional [2 points], completed including textures [3 points]). After each function was rated according to points, an overall point system would be put into effect that determines the stage (for example: 0-30 points "Alpha", 31-60 points "Beta", etc.). Then the tags for each aircraft could be changed appropriately and we would have a nice, standardized rating system that would give a good idea of where the aircraft is at. This is the simplest way that I can think of to make a standardized system that involves so many different aspects of design.

-Jason

PS: I think this might be hijacking the thread and I don't want to do that. If further discussion on this matter is needed, I think it best that we develop a new thread for this matter.
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby helijah » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:33 pm

So actually, a lot of criticism and wind for nothing. I note that you speak without knowing. It's sad and it does nothing.

1 - My hangar has 157 aircraft. Only 131 are on GIT. Do you think I spend on GIT with random criteria ?

In general (unless specifically requested by user impatient) I waiting to have a minimum FDM (but correct), a dashboard (also minimal but sufficient) to spend on GIT.

2 - Reminder: GIT is a place of development and not a server of finished and usable. It is normal to find on GIT planes badly finished. And even completely unusable. See Also, FDM without planes, or planes without FDM. That this does not suit you, do not change the function of GIT. It is a place of community development.

3 - I say it again here. The flight, instruments, are not things that interest me. I have no time to lose at pretending to fly sitting at my PC. I have a passion for airplanes rare, unique or that have marked history. Not because it fly, but because he gathered them in, ideas, inventions, discoveries, see a little crazy and that's what I love.

4 - I always respect your wishes and pleasures. I always answer when someone asks me an aircraft. I like to hope a modicum of respect in return.

Regards. Emmanuel
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby Armchair Ace » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:41 pm

helijah wrote:I like to (receive) a modicum of respect in return.


... and respect is what you receive (from most of us, most of the time - not all of us, all of the time, though).

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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby HHS » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:09 pm

We see a problem and try to solve it. That means discussion to find out what is possible and what not.

helijah wrote:1 - My hangar has 157 aircraft. Only 131 are on GIT. Do you think I spend on GIT with random criteria ?

131 aircrafts of 300- well...

And yes, your aircrafts in GIT shows indeed random criteria.

In general (unless specifically requested by user impatient) I waiting to have a minimum FDM (but correct), a dashboard (also minimal but sufficient) to spend on GIT.

Of course they show a mimimun of fdm- without they woulden't fly.
I would say, they need to have a minimum fdm. This is a flight simulator- not a collection of good looking aircraft which can't do anything but good looking.

2 - Reminder: GIT is a place of development and not a server of finished and usable. It is normal to find on GIT planes badly finished. And even completely unusable. See Also, FDM without planes, or planes without FDM. That this does not suit you, do not change the function of GIT. It is a place of community development.

That's correct, that GIT is place of development. Release early, release often.

But the problem is more and more, that the number of unfinished aircrafts is increasing. This is not a really problem in GIT beside the fact it will be more and more difficult to download the whole package- but later when we release. It will look akwarding to new users to see such a amount of unfinished aircrafts. That doesn't make a good image of the Project FlightGear which aimes to be usuable.

These are the possibilities:
- we make rules for uploading to GIT. Not quite compatible with our concept, but maybe needed when we look at the increasing size
or
-we make rules for uploading on the official Aircraft page, and make a statement that some more aircrafts are available at our repo.
or
-we divide the aircrafts page into finished, beta, alpha or anything else etc...

3 - I say it again here. The flight, instruments, are not things that interest me. I have no time to lose at pretending to fly sitting at my PC. I have a passion for airplanes rare, unique or that have marked history. Not because it fly, but because he gathered them in, ideas, inventions, discoveries, see a little crazy and that's what I love.


If you aren't interested in flight, instruments etc. - important parts of aircrafts - I wonder why you model for FlightGear?!
Of course never ever a desktop simulator will come 100% close to reality- even they are named X-Plane or MSFS or our project.
But FlightGear tries to simulate as good as possible- it is not a virtual glass cabinet.


4 - I always respect your wishes and pleasures. I always answer when someone asks me an aircraft. I like to hope a modicum of respect in return.

If you do, then you have to accept this discussion as well.
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby pjedvaj » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:18 pm

Without Emmanuel's work we would probably now only fly on Cessna 172. IMHO his work is just making FG more atractive to new users and more competitive to other flight sims... If anyone wants to improve his aircrafts they're welcome. Great work helijah!
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby HHS » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:53 pm

pjedvaj wrote:Without Emmanuel's work we would probably now only fly on Cessna 172. IMHO his work is just making FG more atractive to new users and more competitive to other flight sims... If anyone wants to improve his aircrafts they're welcome. Great work helijah!


Polemic words...Or is it just because it was ME in the c172p involved?
But to your answer: We would fly the Morane MS-406, the PA24-250, the Buccaneer, Detlef's aircrafts, the PC-21, PC-9....
:lol:

Not the quantitity will make us competitive.
Qualitity will make us competive. New users don't come because we have 300+ aircrafts - they will come to see good, and full usuable aircrafts.

User of other sims already compares - they ask if we have aircrafts with fully clickable cockpits, good and detailed sceneries- not as if we have more aircrafts than other sims.

And to make sure: I respect helijah's work,he puts in a big amount of time. But I also see the problems with having amount of unfinished aircrafts, which led to image of a whole project beeing unfinished.
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby helijah » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:26 pm

HHS wrote:131 aircrafts of 300- well...

And yes, your aircrafts in GIT shows indeed random criteria.


You mean that you do not know and you can judge. It's not very pleasant.Vous n'est pas mon côté quand je décide ou non de mettre un plan sur GIT.

HHS wrote:Of course they show a mimimun of fdm- without they woulden't fly.
I would say, they need to have a minimum fdm. This is a flight simulator- not a collection of good looking aircraft which can't do anything but good looking.


Will require thou explain that to hundreds who use my planes and take fun with. I am interested in the largest number of users. And not just intolerant extremists.

HHS wrote:That's correct, that GIT is place of development. Release early, release often.

But the problem is more and more, that the number of unfinished aircrafts is increasing. This is not a really problem in GIT beside the fact it will be more and more difficult to download the whole package- but later when we release. It will look akwarding to new users to see such a amount of unfinished aircrafts. That doesn't make a good image of the Project FlightGear which aimes to be usuable.

These are the possibilities:
- we make rules for uploading to GIT. Not quite compatible with our concept, but maybe needed when we look at the increasing size
or
-we make rules for uploading on the official Aircraft page, and make a statement that some more aircrafts are available at our repo.
or
-we divide the aircrafts page into finished, beta, alpha or anything else etc...


This is obviously the opposite of the principle of free software. I do not know if you understand the fisrt word in "Free Software". Free, freedom ... If you prefer owner buys FSX or X-Plane and stop trying to impose your law!

Of course I understand that this is in response to many discussions we had and when you refused all the information I gave you and which are the fruit of my experience. Not only aircraft designer for FG, but also of analyst programmer for since almost 30 years.

HHS wrote:If you aren't interested in flight, instruments etc. - important parts of aircrafts - I wonder why you model for FlightGear?!
Of course never ever a desktop simulator will come 100% close to reality- even they are named X-Plane or MSFS or our project.
But FlightGear tries to simulate as good as possible- it is not a virtual glass cabinet.


If you are unable to understand, I could not explain to you. It is unfortunate and sad. But it's up to you to make an effort of reflection.[/quote]

HHS wrote:If you do, then you have to accept this discussion as well.


And you must accept your hand when you are told that your work for errors.

Now if my aircrafts upset you, do not use it and do not criticize for the pleasure of criticism :(

I do what I like it because it is the open source community. that you dislike it, it's a fact, maybe. But do not drop down the other.

Toanphuc : Reassure you, I'd keep doing what I love.

Regards. Emmanuel
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Re: Does this tool exist?

Postby SkyWlf77 » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:33 pm

While I agree that having a mass amount of unfinished aircraft may not reflect well on FlightGear if they are posted as official downloads, I don't believe that this is a bad thing in whole.

Emmanuel is obviously quite good at making realistic-appearing models with beginning FDM's. As FlightGear is the combination of developers working together towards the common goal of realistic, complete aircraft (at least in one aspect of it), Emmanuel is providing the service of creating the aircraft. This service is to be followed by other developers who take those models and create realistic, fully functional FDM's and other developers fine-tuning the model with instrumentation and interiors. This is all part of the "sharing the work" that FlightGear is all about.

This is similar to what skyop and nickivyca and others are doing by expanding upon the previous work of others. It is a lot of information to take in and work with for one person to create and build an aircraft from scratch to a finished product. Having developers with different areas of specialty makes the job of ending up with complete aircraft a much simpler process. Emmanuel has taken the first step and created the aircraft and now it is up to other developers with capabilities in other specialties to take the next step. Eventually, down the line, the aircraft will be complete and realistic (or at least that is the goal).

The main thing is to make sure that those aircraft included in the base package of FlightGear are completed aircraft and to make sure that those aircraft hosted on the Official Downloads Page are at least in "Beta" status and usable. Those in "Alpha", or unusable states should be kept in GIT itself to keep unsuspecting new users from ending up with a stable of unusable aircraft.

-Jason
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