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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:01 pm

A quick search and I found this

Go to 5min40 and you will see a hard turn in night condition, afterburners ablaze (I know hard to judge as the quality is poor)

Anyway. I tried once more what Philosopher suggested, and it gave some results ... Actually I increased the speed to 200mps (and spread also to same value) 2000 particles per second and life time of 0.02 seconds
Here is the result :
turning hard
Image
and steady
Image

The flame is a bit long, the thing being that, since the exhaust is fast the time needs to be short, and maybe too short. My guess is that if the time falls well below the actual frame rate, it does not matter that much anymore. But I may be proven wrong once more.
Thanks for the advices

Back to the drawing board :)
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:57 am

Please don't bash, I know this is not the place :) (it happens that the dev mailing list is broken at the time of this writing).

If any of the core developers reads this, are there plans to completely migrate HUDs to canvas ? I am asking because I have noticed a nagging "feature" of the current HUD code (I love the RTFS approach), namely the size of the flight path vector is hard coded which on the small HUD of the F-20 makes it look disproportionately large.
I am asking because I think it is no biggy to change the source to have a property to scale it down (and submit the patch). But if plans are that all HUD are going to be canvases then I may as well leave it alone !

Thanks for the tips

Enrique
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby TheTom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:51 pm

Yes, the goal is to get rid of the old HUD system and use the Canvas instead. It is already possible to create a complete HUD using the Canvas (http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_HUD), you have just to draw every symbol and gauge yourself using images or vector drawings. Its definitely more complicated to use then the current HUD system but in the future we'll see how to make it easier and provide helper functions to reuse code between different HUDs and make creating new ones easier.

If you know how to use Nasal and want to experiment around you could try to use the Canvas system for the HUD and help us create a framework/migrate the old HUD code to the Canavas system.
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:22 pm

Hum, tempting.
I guess I will have to use canvas for the MFDs anyway. So in the process I think I will try to code the HUD (the current version is OK for the time being for testing)
I thought the big idea behind canvas was to avoid programming altogether through XML files... Oh well, I can handle some Nasal programming.
I think it'll be hard for me to make a very generic canvas for two reasons :
- I am quite sloppy with Nasal syntax (still haven't figured out how to work with its object system yet). I must admit that I was raised in the times of low performance 8-bit computing and I am still reluctant to use an interpreted scripting language in a real time simulator. I know the performance is good but still :P But if that is the way it is going to be, let's make the most of it ...
- I want to use SVG files to set up some very basic symbols (the HUD ladder, the compass tape ... you name it) and then animate. That cannot be made easily generic I guess :?: Actually, back in the early 2000's (weird that I can write this when you come to think of it), when I was working for Rockwell-Collins, we used a tool to draw vector EFIS symbols that would then be animated by a specific API in the display unit... We are getting close to the real thing !

Anyway I put the development of the HUD on the back burner until I get some experience with the MFD. But since the 3D cockpit model is far from complete, it'll take a looooong time. Maybe then the canvas API will have stabilised

Thanks for the notice :)
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Hooray » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:39 pm

Sounds like your feedback could be really useful here!

I thought the big idea behind canvas was to avoid programming altogether through XML files...

Sort of, the primary idea is to make fully custom 2D drawing possible - without requiring any C++ or rebuilding.
What Tom mentioned is having a Nasal wrapper to parse the old HUD XML format in order to dynamically create a proper "canvas".
This could later on be used to extend the format and support additional modes.


The Nasal OOP is fairly well documented (see the wiki), and I'd volunteer to carefully explain all the details, and I'm sure Tom would also not mind helping you out if necessary :-)

I must admit that I was raised in the times of low performance 8-bit computing and I am still reluctant to use an interpreted scripting language in a real time simulator.

fair enough, and you are right - however, keep in mind that Nasal is only just the "vehicle" here: The core canvas system is entirely written in C++ and works through the property tree ALONE. Nasal is only really used to set up things (initialization) and change a bunch of properties. Performance-critical stuff is usually not done by Nasal. And Tom has been really responsive to optimize things as required and move them to C++ space.


I want to use SVG files to set up some very basic symbols (the HUD ladder, the compass tape ... you name it) and then animate. That cannot be made easily generic I guess

There are plans to support this anyhow. And SVG files are already supported. Optimizing this is on the todo list. Animations were discussed for different needs, too. So probably, the canvas will get a handful of additional primitives/modes for animations, that can then be used for such needs. See the wiki for details.

when I was working for Rockwell-Collins, we used a tool to draw vector EFIS symbols that would then be animated by a specific API in the display unit... We are getting close to the real thing !

That's basically also how A661 works, which inspired parts of the canvas system - so the workflow should certainly be possible to support eventually.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:34 pm

First in game shot of the WIP cockpit
Image
There you can see the tricky thing with the velocity vector (it's just that the HUD was NOT wide angle in the early 80's)

And just because I am a terrible show off, the works in terms of night effects (actually cockpit light is missing)
Image

Yeah, the logo light may be a bit too intense ;)

I say, next summer would be nice for a release
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Figaro » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:32 am

;o that's a beautiful screenshot, it looks quite real.

Cheers,
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Ernest1984 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:09 am

You can move the afterburner a little bit closer to the exhaust.
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Philosopher » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:38 pm

Wonderful work, flying toaster! Though I only remember allocating 3 KW to the tail light not 5... ;) On the afterburner, I thought that it curved a little bit (slightly noticeable amount) in the video, though I couldn't see that well. Yours looks like it curves an even more minute amount (noticeable only if you take out the ruler), so I think you could afford to lower the speed just a titch if you want to. Anyways, I'm looking forward to whenever you release it!
Thanks,
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby xiii » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:30 pm

After burners at night are just like huge white flames. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqrsPSle4aA or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0XyeW-73kM at dusk.

You'll see a few (5 or 6) static and concentric donuts (well aranged infact rather than ramdomly placed) mostly under day light. they are steady shockvawe artifacts and move with the aircraft. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNugoJLPHQw 3:08, 3:30, 6:41, 7:03

and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... SRvRTm8A4Q

mmmhhh :-)

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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:20 pm

xiii wrote in Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:30 pm:After burners at night are just like huge white flames. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqrsPSle4aA or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0XyeW-73kM at dusk.

You'll see a few (5 or 6) static and concentric donuts (well aranged infact rather than ramdomly placed) mostly under day light. they are steady shockvawe artifacts and move with the aircraft. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNugoJLPHQw 3:08, 3:30, 6:41, 7:03

and also http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... SRvRTm8A4Q

mmmhhh :-)

Alexis


Guess then it's back to the drawing board ;)
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Johan G » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:08 pm

So, it's more or less an overpowerd flickering* blowtorch!? :wink:

*As in "flickering", like flickering candles, not the other f-word! :roll:
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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:15 am

New effect

I replaced the particle system with a 3d object. The shock cones are double tipped pyramids (they won't move now ;) ) and the halo is a billboarded rectangle. Flickering (and tip instability) is achieved through textranslate
Image

I post a non-Rembrandt screenshot because rembrandt somehow de-satures colors (i.e. every thing turns whitish, even without bloom). Has anybody ran into that before and is there a way to compensate ?

Thanks for helping me to improve :)

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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Flying toaster » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:57 pm

Some progress on detailing.

Image

It seems that adding that many polygons to the model does not have a hit on frame rate (weird). It seems all the more stranger that I have a low end PC by today's standards (I mean the SF scenery shows up with a frame rate below 10fps, but that gives me an excuse for flying between LGIR, LGSA and LGSR ;)).
What is the recommended spec today on FlightGear ?

In this Rembrandt shot you can see that the nozzle is almost white when it is a medium shade of grey. I have tried to play with the ambient component in Blender but still does not do the trick. Any clue ?

Cheers

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Re: F-20 teaser

Postby Johan G » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:53 pm

Flying toaster wrote in Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:57 pm:Some progress on detailing.

What do you mean with "Some"?!! It took me two seconds to realise I wasn't looking at a photograph! (When my eyes hit the terrain I got it...) The forward section is stunning! :D :lol: 8)
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