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Airbus A320 [Family]

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby FGRS » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:44 pm

Sooner or later,the whole story end up this way. Just no use. Forget it.
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:04 pm

Actually, that's unfair - I took several minutes of my Sunday afternoon to explain to you how to bring the changes you're looking for to FlightGear, even without having to do all the work yourself.
Now, instead of reading and understanding the responses I've typed, and instead of following the links I posted, you just end up disregarding my message.
Don't you think I'd deserve some more of your time here ?
What's the problem, really ?

You said it yourself: "too much talking, too little materializing".
You know what ? That's typically a phenomenon of people being unskilled.
Not just that though. Unskilled and unwilling to learn new skills.
So they resort to talking instead, lots of talking. Trying to talk to the few people who actually have some skills.
You can witness that in the FDM discussion thread: There's a ton of postings made by many people, and very few postings made by very few people who are obviously skilled an experienced.
So in simple terms what's happening there is this: Those who recognize their inability to learn something new, beg others who already have those skills to donate their spare time according to their priorities.
Simple as that.

So this is typically a sign of people who are unskilled and unwilling to learn new stuff - so they beg others to do it for them, i.e. delegating responsibility to others, instead of shouldering it themselves.
It's a lame excuse, i.e. talking instead of acting - because talking is so much easier than spending many hours reading something and making experiments, i.e. learning a new skill such editing XML files or working through tutorials.

And then you have those few people who actually have the skills required to implement what others are requesting - but they have typically very little spare time, because they're involved in other areas of FG, or maybe even because they don't have enough time to contribute to FG at all, due to RL.

You can usually tell quickly who belongs to which camp of people.

Then again, you have people like Thorsten, Philosopher or Gijs who have contributed hundreds -even thousands- of hours contributing to FlightGear. And they're typically the ones being asked to provide help and support in a 1:1 mentoring setup. Despite the fact that these very people also spent many hours creating resources (such as tutorials) to enable others to learn the very same skills they've acquired, by playing with "hello world" examples, experimenting a bit and working through tutorials and code examples.

It's "education", just that - education always pays off, no matter if it's a degree in real life, or if it's time spent learning a new skill, such as cooking or programming, 3D modeling or writing.

Successful contributors always seem to have understood that you need to be able to walk before you try to run.
Many others didn't understand that, even if they were told so. We had one guy interested in "rewriting" the bombable addon, without ever looking into the code, without talking to flug (its developer) first.
Kinda uninformed and stupid isn't it ?

If you want to participate in a F1 race, you need to understand the rules first - and better already know how to drive a car, right ?
If you were to learn how to play golf, you'd better spend some first getting the basics straight, right ?
You'd be kinda ill-advised to directly ask Tiger Woods to coach you, right ?
But that's exactly what's happening once people come here with a zero track record of contributing to the project, and without any obvious willingness to do some upfront work, and then ask folks like Thorsten or Philosopher to "coach" them, because they are "Tiger Woods" in FG terms :D

Kinda annoying if you ask me ...
Honestly, instead of asking the pros to accommodate you, show some willingness to get started first of all.
Especially at a stage where you still have zero clue about anything relevant apparently and zero interest in rolling up your sleeves to make some experiments first ?
How is this supposed to work out ?

Really, this is a honest question I'm asking here.

</Analogy-Day>

PS: If you just want to get started, pick a simple project first
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby FGRS » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:40 pm

There's one nice saying I remember now,it says " When you argue with a fool,in the eyes of others,you are a fool too" ,so the smartest thing to do now,will be to leave this place and never come back and to let all of you enjoy in your own world. Now I see why the FlightGear is completely unknown simulator...because of you. This sim,is your own world. so obviously there;s no space for me here.

Good bye everyone.
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:20 pm

I don't think you will find anybody else here interpreting my responses like you do now.
They're intended to be 100% constructive and not the slightest bit argumentative.
So not sure what you're problem really is, is it the language ? If so, use google translate.

My whole point was that we're all in the same situation at some point - your situation isn't any different.
No matter if it's due to your skill set, limited spare time or limited hardware budget. All of us were once faced with at least one of these before.
And like I've shown now, others are much more constrained than you are.

Yes, you can go and claim that this is about all the skills necessary - but that's simply not the point.

To be perfectly honest, I am not at all interested in learning Blender (3D modeling), I once had it installed but I didn't seem to have the mental capacity (read:patience) to use it any longer than 5 seconds without becoming crazy. As you can see in the canvas forum, others (including core developers) cannot stand Inkscape at all.

So when I needed help related to 3D modeling, I ask others -more experienced with it- to do this for me.
In return, I volunteer my own time to accommodate them, i.e. personal networking. Likewise, I am not overly interested in FDM tuning, but I can help with other things.
I am also not very interested in learning GLSL or effect development, but I am sure that I could ask Thorsten to help me here, because I helped him with other things.

You will find that this is how the project works generally.
We have quite a few people giving "impulses" every once in a while, without necessarily contributing directly to the corresponding effort itself.
You will find that I usually try to provide something in return whenever I leave a comment suggesting/requesting something - such as an offer to help with some specific feature or implementation detail.
That's kinda the "glue" that keeps things together here. And that's all there's to it, really.

Of course, I also find it much easier to just make suggestions or requests than implementing something directly.

But that's simply not how the project works (or life in general). Not even for people who are core developers and intimately familiar with the project.
You'd be surprised at the number of good comments and suggestions made by long-time core developers, that receive little or no feedback from others in return to good, informative and well-written suggestions. Zakalawe is encountering this regularly on the devel list, and still keeps on contributing - handling many ideas on his own instead.

As I've shown previously, there's a handful of people interested in exactly the same things as you're.
Now, you could do yourself a favor and read what they've written and actually find a way to team up with them.

Some of them may be interested in XML, 3D modeling, texturing or scripting - whenever you team up with others, only need to complement each other.

It would only take 20-30 minutes of your time to get this started, i.e. send out PMs to others and find a way to make yourself useful to them.

So what I have laid out here is a way to make yourself useful to others, and actually cause the changes you're looking for, without having to do all the work yourself.
I even told you how to ensure that you'll be heard by core developers when it comes supporting old hardware, and in fact I even made a promise for the next ~18 months.

So what really is the problem now ? Is it English, or is it just your attitude ? Do you have a problem with being part of the solution ? Would you prefer just being part of the problem instead ?
If so, you're right on track ...

PS: I think it says "don't feed the trolls"
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
Hooray
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby FGRS » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:20 pm

The problem is in the big difference in mentality. Here where I live I don't have to ask for some help like 150 thousand times. Here people quite simply say " I can't " or "I can do it,tell me what you need." ,without unnecessary talk.

BUT ,in this lovely country where I live in,no one has ever heard of FlightGear or any of its assets..so I can't ask no one for help. Some people here are involved in Microsoft FS for 13 years. I would like to know if anyone is involved in FG that long. I will not bother you or anyone else here any more. cause I see that I'm on the wrong place.

I will try to contribute to FG in some other way ,cause FG aircraft developing ( and fixing) is not for me. I will find some area where I can work alone or at least with some different people.

Cheers.
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:33 pm

I really suggest to check out google translate, I think you must have really misunderstood something I said. My responses to you are exceptionally clear and constructive actually, and even fairly polite I may add ;-)

It hardly gets any better than this ... I am not sure why you are making this so darn difficult.
I don't think mentality really is an issue - we've dozens of users here who regularly cope just fine with a similar degree of support, as it's been offered to you now.
In fact, in terms of just FG, I have worked with roughly 2 dozen folks last year and we managed to collaborate just fine.
Maybe you need to take some time off and re-visit the thread again, just bookmark the responses and read them again - and you'll see that there's no reason why you shouldn'get involved in some way, or even change FG the way you want. It just involves a certain learning curve, and we've all gone through this. Some of us more so than others - but it's not rocket science at all.
As could be seen, there are even folks around here who haven't been able to run FG for many months, but that didn't stop them from contributing. So I guess it cannot be a mentality issue in general ?
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby openflight » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:12 am

Quick reply here: I have been thinking of updating the wiki with "Troubleshooting Aircraft" .

Before I do that, may I suggest it is the JBSIM FDM that is the problem, and may be fixed with the config file.

As an alternative, you could copy the FDM file from and older, working version of the aircraft and see if it works.

I am using the PA 24- 250 that rolls and crashes when the "wing leveler" is selected in autopilot. Well it does level the wings in a way. :D

Sorry I do not have 2.0 (but according to my survey several people still use it)
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:34 am

This is what I just received via PM (without any other context/messages at all):
FGRS via PM wrote:I will also suggest you one simple thing.Get the hell out of me.just leave me alone.


see just how grateful he is for all the help I've been providing here ...
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Bjoern » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:08 pm

You're an impressively patient man, Hooray. Kudos!
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:25 pm

actually, I think I was just being terribly naive, trying to "convert" him into a useful community member by spending 20+ minutes reasoning with him - obviously, in vain...
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
Hooray
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby HelldiverSquadron » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:23 pm

Hooray, Your'e absolutely spot-on. Incredibly patient. My condolences for the time gone to ears not listening.
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby FGRS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:35 pm

I'm working on eradication of the pitch/dive behavior of the A320 Family aircraft. With some small touches,that behavior is gone on the A320-211,so I will try to fix on the others,A318,319 and A321.

openflight ,you were quite right. After tinkering with some numbers in the FDM,the aircraft is quite stable and that annoying pitch/dive seems to be gone. On a test flight ,on which I was really pushing it ,the aircraft's behavior was quite good. I said "seems" for a reason,there's still a lot of room for it to come back.

I will also try to fix the right/left hard rudder on start up. It's not making too much of a problem when the take off is on a fine weather,but with cross wind ...since my knowledge about all of this is close to none,everyone is welcome to help out. :D

I hope I will finally make this aircraft competitive to others similar aircraft.
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby HelldiverSquadron » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:38 pm

Chaa! everyone has stopped blubbering! Many thanks! I quite agree with FGRS. I haven't had as many pitch issues as he/she has, but I still notice unrealistic movement and odd TACAS reactions. My uncle is an airline pilot and he flies this aircraft, so I asked him. He said how it acted was close, but not close enough.


Many thanks,

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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby FGRS » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:14 pm

First of all ,it's he. :D

It was about time to finally fix all,or at least most of the problems on this aircraft.

I'm working on it to eradicate the pitch problems. A lot of things on this aircraft need to be fixed. Like I said,I'm just a beginner in all of this so every help is welcomed.

I have noticed that when pitch problems are out,the aircraft needs more rw to take off. When properly loaded with fuel and PAX,even some quite long rw can become short. And there's the full (left / right) ruder problem..any ideas about that?

Cheers
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Re: Airbus A320 [Family]

Postby Hooray » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:45 pm

kudos for turning this back into a constructive discussion
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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