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MiG-15bis

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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby Upkeep » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:21 pm

Dear Vitos:

Thank you so much for making the amendments. It loads perfectly in Windows now. I must say it is an extremely impressive aircraft. I can't wait to try it!! Thank you again. Regards. Upkeep.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:29 pm

Thorsten wrote:So, I am looking forward to the JSBSim version!


Thank You for looking. I've talk with guys on IRC, my 2.0 bug it's a real and not only mine problem. There is no solution right now. Lights stays same for a while. But, can You tell me, would I see that colors in Blender to fix it without starting FG at all?

JSBsim model already starts in FG, but could not startup engine. So, its a matter of days to let it fly. Not too long for waiting.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:30 pm

Upkeep wrote:Thank you so much for making the amendments. It loads perfectly in Windows now. I must say it is an extremely impressive aircraft. I can't wait to try it!! Thank you again. Regards. Upkeep.


Thank You for testing. :)
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby karla » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:49 am

Your aircraft development looks great vitos and I think that more people should spend their effort on improving existing FG aircraft instead of trying to create new ones. I reckon FG has plenty of choice in aircraft types but not enough choice in quality and I think we lose many potential users because of we do not have enough quality aircraft like yours. I agree that FG is not really suited to be a wargame and development along those lines is probably wasted; I use AAA IL-2 1946 v4.09 for combat and find that it's much better than MS CFS3 or FSX for that kind of thing. I hope your MiG becomes a standard featured aircraft in future - there's also a worthwhile aircraft for the painters out there.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby richter » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:53 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with karla in the post above: let's work on improving the quality of the existing aircraft, because there is a huge amount of room for improvement. I think every aircraft should have at the bare minimum essential flight instruments and control surface animation, yet many are lacking these. There are even some with no 3-D model at all! Many of the aircraft models are simply old and were designed before current "standard" features like multiple livery or lights, yet these are features which can be very easily added in cut-and-paste-and-minor-edit fashion to the XML files, and the updates could be posted as diffs.

I think every aircraft designer should have one (or a few) original aircraft to "own", but beyond that, try to work on improving others.

I also agree with karla that vitos' MiG-15bis is superb. Great work!
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:05 pm

karla wrote:Your aircraft development looks great vitos and I think that more people should spend their effort on improving existing FG aircraft instead of trying to create new ones. I reckon FG has plenty of choice in aircraft types but not enough choice in quality and I think we lose many potential users because of we do not have enough quality aircraft like yours. I agree that FG is not really suited to be a wargame and development along those lines is probably wasted; I use AAA IL-2 1946 v4.09 for combat and find that it's much better than MS CFS3 or FSX for that kind of thing. I hope your MiG becomes a standard featured aircraft in future - there's also a worthwhile aircraft for the painters out there.


Thank You for good words. I think that improvement of someone else work in many ways more difficult task than creation of something completely new. And it become as more hard as many things is done already. But it's not only reason to many halfmaded crafts instead of few truly good. There is another. Then someone starts something it's practically always look easier than it really is. Many authors stops in the middle of the way because of real life limitations and overestimation of own forces. Creation of FG craft looks simple at beginning, but it not so simple really and it can not be simplified much as whole process. I can tell that after near complete plane production. There's many issues in production of almost every part of plane. In 3d models import. In Yasim an Jsbsim models. In FG core itself. I could not go far without help from my honest compatriots in Russian FG forum and some good guys here, but I would not stop. Others otherwise. So, we have what we have in result.

FG is not combat simulator and, I hope, will not be. In real life aircrafts falls down often because of misuse than in result of enemy fire. So, in simulator it must be same way, at least if it simulator instead of game. But 99% of simers would not even takeoff on real aircraft. Really. Heh. You know, in real MiG You must sit down and do nothing 10 minutes after engine startup. Engine would shutdown on takeoff otherwise. I will not add that restriction of course. :) But I can write about that in documentation and here. On my opinion, truly simulator must focus on something like this. On limitations of misuse. It would be great if simer would really fly on real aircraft without any additional education. It's my purpose in some meanings.
Last edited by vitos on Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:45 pm

richter wrote:I wholeheartedly agree with karla in the post above: let's work on improving the quality of the existing aircraft, because there is a huge amount of room for improvement. I think every aircraft should have at the bare minimum essential flight instruments and control surface animation, yet many are lacking these. There are even some with no 3-D model at all! Many of the aircraft models are simply old and were designed before current "standard" features like multiple livery or lights, yet these are features which can be very easily added in cut-and-paste-and-minor-edit fashion to the XML files, and the updates could be posted as diffs.

I think every aircraft designer should have one (or a few) original aircraft to "own", but beyond that, try to work on improving others.

I also agree with karla that vitos' MiG-15bis is superb. Great work!


Thank You. Maybe there is simply not so much people who have interest in cut-n-paste. Most of authors seek ways to make their own aircrafts, because they are authors, not users. I think things You are talking about would be done in cooperation, but not as result of some, hmm, "chance programming" then anybody could add something somewhere and someday. There is hundreds, no, thousands of aircraft types in real life. As I can see way it goes today we will have most of them in FG as halfmaded or even quatermaded models.

In Soviet Russia we had "subbotnik"'s. People were walk on work on Saturday sometimes and allhands make some commonly needed works that could not be done in ordinary because of business. So, if someone could say here "Let's altogether make that old craft" and one would add sound, another one would improve flight model, etc, it would be the day really, because result would be seen fast, and such command would improve many aircrafts same way.

Anyway, there's alpha of Jsbsim MiG-15 for FG 2.0 http://users.flightgear.ru/vitos/MiG-15_JSBSim.zip
It have not Yasim stalls, but it takes 30 seconds to start because of Jsbsim issues. And it's very difficult to land because of simplified flight model by aeromatic. Jsbsim beta will be on datcom results.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby Thorsten » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:45 pm

You know, in real MiG You must sit down and do nothing 10 minutes after engine startup. Engine would shutdown on takeoff otherwise. I will not add that restriction of course.(...)
It have not Yasim stalls, but it takes 30 seconds to start because of Jsbsim issues. And it's very difficult to land because of simplified flight model by aeromatic. Jsbsim beta will be on datcom results.


Well, then we have 30 seconds already...maybe you can implement that it needs to run a minute at low RPM?

I tested the JSBSim version - it is definitely a bit tricksy to land, and I also had some oscillations trying to start which nearly brought me off the runway. I have the feeling that the action of the elevator is much reduced - I couldn't even get into any high-g turns. The stall speed seems to have increased a bit - when I tried to slow to 300 km/h before extending flaps, I lost so much altitude that I nearly crashed. So I extended flaps and gear around 360 km/h in the second try - that seemed to work, but isn't possibly a good thing to do with the real MiG. The engine gets a lot hotter for the same RPM setting. I hope the beta version will be a bit more balanced...
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:29 pm

Firstly, great Thank You for testing.

Thorsten wrote:Well, then we have 30 seconds already...maybe you can implement that it needs to run a minute at low RPM?


Startup time is not included in that 30 seconds, but You are right anyway. Minute looks more realistic. And, because of some JSBSim fuel issues, if power turns off there is some fuel in, name it, pipes. So You can switch power back again if You are understand it fast enough, without engine restarting.

Thorsten wrote:I tested the JSBSim version - it is definitely a bit tricksy to land, and I also had some oscillations trying to start which nearly brought me off the runway. I have the feeling that the action of the elevator is much reduced - I couldn't even get into any high-g turns. The stall speed seems to have increased a bit - when I tried to slow to 300 km/h before extending flaps, I lost so much altitude that I nearly crashed. So I extended flaps and gear around 360 km/h in the second try - that seemed to work, but isn't possibly a good thing to do with the real MiG.


It's all because aeromatic. It won't even ask You about there elevator or aileron is. So it could make good model only for straight medium crafts like F-16. MiG is not straight medium, it's straight side. It's have mass balance on back, very big rudder, very high elevator and so on. So aeromatic model is completely wrong in that case.

Thorsten wrote:The engine gets a lot hotter for the same RPM setting.


Actually highest engine temperature is 750C. I've add some coefficient, but scale wrong too. So, it's a matter to change.

Thorsten wrote:I hope the beta version will be a bit more balanced...


Finally, with great advices and help by Yurik Nikiforoff, I've made it. There's still some things to add, but not to fix.

You can download beta version here: http://users.flightgear.ru/vitos/MiG-15.zip. It use most of aero dynamic data from real MiG.

Update: bug with engine starting on new FG git version removed. Flaps tear added. Extract flaps on speeds beyond 350 km\h, or it will be teared apart.

Update: gears tear on overspeed or overroll added. Now absendmindedness may lead to something like that:
Image

Update: now gears tears on too rough landing or landing in unappropriate surface too. Teared laps and gears can by restored by menu.

Update: now gears tears one by one. With some luck it possible to see something like this:Image

Update: Now it is possible to crash on ground hit or g overload.

Update: Autostart and fast full restore added.

Note: It seems that one MiG could be shot down by another in multiplayer since new crash system is works.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby Gijs » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:27 pm

What can I say on this?! I just love it! So much details, so much to discover!
Truelly amazing! Now, I'm off for some more trying, looking and flying!
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby someguy » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:20 pm

Sorry, I can't seem to get the engine started in Mac git. Not with autostart, not with full restart.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:39 pm

Gijs wrote:What can I say on this?! I just love it! So much details, so much to discover!
Truelly amazing! Now, I'm off for some more trying, looking and flying!


Ok, thank You. Wish You good flight.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:43 pm

someguy wrote:Sorry, I can't seem to get the engine started in Mac git. Not with autostart, not with full restart.


Is seems strange, some other guy had this issue on Windows too. No problems on Linux git, some another guy use it without problem. If You hadn't remove previous MiG directory completely, try do it and write files from zip on clean place. Maybe it will help. If not wait for next git update. Can not help You in that, have no Mac.

But, if You can, pleas, send there FG console output after startup attempt. It would be useful.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby Gijs » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:18 pm

Autostart works fine on Windows Vista, FlightGear GIT from last Sunday.
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Re: MiG-15bis

Postby vitos » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:20 pm

Gijs wrote:Autostart works fine on Windows Vista, FlightGear GIT from last Sunday.


Thank You. Maybe it's not OS problem at all. But without some data it's hard to say what it actually is.
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