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Remake DC3 textures

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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby wlbragg » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:00 am

you'd like to cooperate, feel free to fork this one and shove PR's my way.


Did I miss where the repo is?
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby tdammers » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:15 pm

No idea how that happened, but it seems that I didn't actually include the URL. Here it is:

https://github.com/tdammers/Douglas-Dc3
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby helijah » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:29 pm

tdammers wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:15 pm:No idea how that happened, but it seems that I didn't actually include the URL. Here it is:

https://github.com/tdammers/Douglas-Dc3


Aren't you tired of providing links to outdated versions that shouldn't be used here ?

The last OFFICIAL version and available on FGAddon Trunk and in the hangar of the official maintainer :

http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/les-appareils/dc3/appareil.htm

http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/flightgear/ftp/Aircraft-trunk/

Many can indeed criticize me but if it is based on obsolete work and not up to date it is normal!

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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby tdammers » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:35 am

Aren't you tired of providing links to outdated versions that shouldn't be used here ?


"Shouldn't", says who? The license that comes with the version I based my work on explicitly allows, if not outright invites, doing exactly this - making changes to it, and redistributing the modified version. If you don't like people doing this, then do not distribute your work under a license that explicitly tells them to do so. You are in no position to tell anyone which versions should or should not be linked to.

The last OFFICIAL version and available on FGAddon Trunk and in the hangar of the official maintainer :


Just because you capitalize "OFFICIAL" doesn't mean it suddenly becomes meaningful. You can rightfully claim to be the original author of that aircraft model, and that you will only be providing support for the version endorsed by you. That's fair game. But I'm not asking you to provide support to anyone, all I'm doing here is sharing code that I am legally allowed to share. Telling people that my version is "verboten", or that yours is somehow "official" (again, there is no authority in the world that could lend credit to the "official" status of anything here) is just silly.

And, again, don't get me wrong - I'd be perfectly happy pulling in your recent changes, but in the interest of keeping commit histories compatible and myself sane, I will be very reluctant to do this if it's not a git repo that I can pull from.

Oh, and let's look at the changes, shall we?

Between the version I forked and the current one on FGADDON, two commits were made, both with identical commit messages reading "Douglas DC-3/C47: FDM revision. Procedural lights. Relative paths. Fixed some errors. New BumpMap".

Neither of those commits actually touches the FDM, neither introduces relative paths; one does add some procedural lights, the other seems to be largely a matter of whitespace/formatting, plus some work on Effects and dual control. In a nutshell, it's a mess. But fortunately, these changes are not critical for me, so I won't jump through any hoops trying to apply them. They are also nowhere near significant enough to make the previous version "obsolete", as you say - the thing still works fine, there are no new issues from running it on FG nightly/next, I see no problems with using that version as the basis for my work.

And as I said, I'm planning to take this in a direction you probably won't like anyway - the long term plan is to gradually replace things with more realistic / accurate simulations. The FDM will probably be JSBSim, the engines modelled properly (including accurate modelling of prop backdriving, auto-mixture settings, etc.), aerodynamics matching the real thing more closely, the messy Nasal will need to be rewritten, the systems redone, etc. I have no idea if and when I'll find the time to do any of that, but that's the roadmap I have in mind. For now, just adding an alternative "modernized" flightdeck, fixing the Sperry unit, fixing some of the overhead panel controls, increasing rudder authority, and making the tailwheel lock work like in the real thing, already makes the aircraft a lot better for me. I fully expect you to not agree with any of this, and that's OK - you keep maintaining yours, and I'll make mine into what I want out of it. I'm not trying to attack you here or anything; I just want this thing to do what I want it to do, and I'm offering links to my code so that others can, if they so wish, benefit from it.

I don't know, maybe it's the language barrier, but somehow you're coming across pretty aggressive, and if that's how you mean it, then I think that's a bit inappropriate.

Anyway, again:

- Feel free to take my work and merge it into yours. Or not. It's your choice.
- Feel free to post a link to a git repo of your version, and I'll happily pull in your changes.
- Please stop trying to censor people, it makes you look a bit silly.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby TheEagle » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:56 am

@tdammers: I think you might be able to save you some of the work by using files (FDM, for example) from the PAF DC-3 - they already have JSBsim version that flies pretty nice ! :)
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby helijah » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:12 pm

tdammers wrote in Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:35 am:"Shouldn't", says who? The license that comes with the version I based my work on explicitly allows, if not outright invites, doing exactly this - making changes to it, and redistributing the modified version. If you don't like people doing this, then do not distribute your work under a license that explicitly tells them to do so. You are in no position to tell anyone which versions should or should not be linked to.


Did I criticize your version? NOPE !
Did I refuse that someone modifies, improves (or deteriorates via JSBSim) my models? NOPE

What I blame you for is giving a link to a version that is not up to date. Which will give people who want to improve the model something bad for the future.

As for the modifications, of course like all the others, you base yourself on what is written without taking the time to check by launching the model in FG. So you don't know what you're talking about. So no comment.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby S&J » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:10 pm

Been saying it for years.

This is a problem of FG's own making and will continue over and over and over again untill this FG community has the strength of character to limit the amount of planes a single developer can maintain in the OFFICAL repository.

The present situation forces developers to have to base their work outside of the official repository and as such is considered 'less' or 'inferior'.

This is madness !

Pick a number, I guarantee it'll only impact a single individual even if it's in two figures.

At present FG is not acting in the spirit of open source.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby tdammers » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 pm

helijah wrote in Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:12 pm:What I blame you for is giving a link to a version that is not up to date. Which will give people who want to improve the model something bad for the future.


So I can do what I want, but I have to keep it a secret? Is that what you're saying?
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby TheEagle » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:22 pm

@S&J: Limit the number of aircraft a single developer can maintain on FGAddon ? Why ? This is just crazy - it contradicts OPEN source straight.
@helijah: If you want to forbid tdammers from sharing his version because it is outdated, he can forbid you to share your version too, because it doesn't have his improvements - just think about it. None of you can forbid the other to share his version - so this discussion is just pointless.

@S&J and @helijah: If you really have to waste your time with this discussion, then at least do it by PM and don't spam this thread, which originally was about improving an aircraft, but was transformed into a pointless discussion (war would be the better word, though), as it is the case so often when one of a few people participates in it, and ended in just scaring away the thread's author (or did you see any post from Aboim here in the last days ?) Please helijah, just make your YAsim aircraft which you do well, and let others improve them with better instruments, a JSBsim FDM or whatever else.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby helijah » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:52 am

TheEagle wrote in Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:22 pm:@S&J:@S&J and @helijah: If you really have to waste your time with this discussion,


Lol the fact is that none of you brings real solutions but prefers to create internal wars without interest.

Aboim2 contacted me directly by email and today he learns more in 1 email than here in 20 posts. So whether or not to pollute this discussion will not change his involvement and his work, which he does with pleasure and love.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby TheEagle » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:54 am

helijah wrote in Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:52 am:So whether or not to pollute this discussion will not change his involvement and his work, which he does with pleasure and love.

I'm relieved … still, stop spamming. Point.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby tdammers » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:56 pm

helijah wrote in Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:52 am:
TheEagle wrote in Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:22 pm:@S&J:@S&J and @helijah: If you really have to waste your time with this discussion,


Lol the fact is that none of you brings real solutions but prefers to create internal wars without interest.

Aboim2 contacted me directly by email and today he learns more in 1 email than here in 20 posts. So whether or not to pollute this discussion will not change his involvement and his work, which he does with pleasure and love.


And because all that happened behind closed doors, nobody else learned anything, and people like myself are discouraged from cooperating.

Don't worry, I will no longer interfere with your development in any way - I'll keep hacking away at making the DC3 I want, and you can keep doing your own thing. I'm not looking for a fight here, and I'm too old to deal with this, so I'm disengaging now.
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby helijah » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:03 pm

tdammers wrote in Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:56 pm:And because all that happened behind closed doors, nobody else learned anything, and people like myself are discouraged from cooperating.

Don't worry, I will no longer interfere with your development in any way - I'll keep hacking away at making the DC3 I want, and you can keep doing your own thing. I'm not looking for a fight here, and I'm too old to deal with this, so I'm disengaging now.


Well that's a pity and very sad. But if instead of coming to speak here on a forum or in any case those who know do not want to share their knowledge you had, like Aboim2, directly asked the interested party by email, you could have known much more things than here. But of course not, it is better to believe the few people who denigrate and want at all costs to demonstrate that they are right by destroying day after day a project like FlighGear which deserves so much better than people full of themselves and who do not don't want to share their knowledge.
And why am I not doing it here? Simple since 2006 I added more than 320 planes for FlightGear, but also the city of Paris, Corsica and with them hundreds of 3D models that are reused all over the world of FG. But every time I've come to speak here there's been nothing but criticism and insults towards me. And since 2006 I had time to see the Forum become a Forum without interest and controlled by people without scruple and without respect!

Of course with a bit of luck this post will be deleted by maintenance.... The truth is never good to say
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby tdammers » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:22 pm

Yes, it is sad - but I am not the one who started insinuating bad faith.

I'm not interested in harming anyone or anything, and I have done absolutely nothing to suggest as much. I would have loved to cooperate on this one, but the tone of this conversation makes me uncomfortable, hence I am peacefully walking away from it. That is all; please do not read more into it based on past experiences with this community (trust me, I've had my fair share of negative experiences too).
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Re: Remake DC3 textures

Postby S&J » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:58 pm

@ eagle

Maybe it's because English isn't your first language that you fail to understand but I'll make it simple for you.

I'm not spamming this topic.

No individual can be actively maintaing over 200 planes. You think you're a contentent developer so you should know this, so me point it out isn't spamming.

Tdammers wishes to work on some content, he communicates this to the community and he's accused of misleading folk by using an 'our of date' content

I'm defending his and everyone's right to modify and distribute GPL content without these accusation by a person that holds the development keys to over 200 planes. You should also be doing that rather than accusing me of spamming.

Having someone hold the development keys to over 200 planes actively inhibits development, you can see it in this thread.

I'm offering a suggestion on how to alleviate this by limiting the number of planes a single individual can hold the development keys on. I'm not stopping anyone from working on 200 planes if they wish. Whereas this situation because you can't distribute your work (without hostile forking) and cluttering up FGAddon repository with multiple versions of the same plane is very much doing that.

Is that what people wish to see ?

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if common sense was used on the number of planes a single developer can actively maintain on FGAddon.

Please stop calling my posts spam, all because you don't understand them or agree with them.

It's counter to a healthy community.
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