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Improving the Daher TBM-930

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Improving the Daher TBM-930

Postby Aviator08 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 am

Split off from the topic McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development.


Seeing your experience with developing aircraft, I found this TBM-930 that needs developing.
The exterior looks great, but the cockpit needs some work. I think FG needs some more small business aircraft.

Link: http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/les-a ... pareil.htm
Last edited by Johan G on Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split off from the topic McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby merspieler » Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:13 am

Hellajas aircraft are all that crappy... as they think, quantity beats quality.

If you want to get improvements for that aircraft, you should talk to Hellaja directly as they're the current maintainer. (They've got mad in the past cause others changed something on "their" aircraft)
... good luck with that.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby Delta5142 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:03 pm

They? Is it a group of developers?
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby merspieler » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:29 pm

no, they pronoun, singular.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby Octal450 » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:50 pm

Aviator08 wrote in Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 am:Seeing your experience with developing aircraft, I found this TBM-930 that needs developing.


Sorry, but I am not looking to take on any further projects at this time. Thank you for the compliment though.

Kind Regards,
Josh

PS: Helijah uses a translation. So it can be tough to communicate with him but he has good intentions. Its the communication that breaks down.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby V12 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:23 am

Delta5142 wrote in Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:03 pm:They? Is it a group of developers?


helijah wrote in Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:49 am:...So 15 years to create around 300 models. An average of 20 models per year therefore. Which is not huge.


300 models in 15 years = 1 aircraft per 18.25 days. With all due respect - unbelievable. Create model from blueprints, make textures, fine tune FDM, milions of FG restarts in this proces... I very much doubt that he is working on it himself
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby merspieler » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:09 am

fine tune FDM??? That must be a joke... those FDMs are all but fine tuned.

You need longer than 18 days to finetune an FDM with all that there is.
Same goes for a good model. Already finding the right documentation can take days or even weeks.

The secret to that pace is inaccuracy... They are just that fast, cause they don't care about accuracy.

Take the A320 for example:
* The model has been worked on for over a year and it's only nearing completion
* The new FDM on the 3D branch took also over a month

And I'm not gonna start on accurately modeled systems...

Not even a 10 headed full time dev team could make a quality aircraft in under a month.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby Octal450 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:11 pm

Yeah..... Merspieler is 100% here.

Just some stats for FDMs for the A320, MD-11, and MD-80 without having aero tunnel data available:

- A320's new FDM, I started LAST YEAR and its still not done!
- MD-11's FDM: I started the current reversion in 2018 and it became stable in late 2019
- MD-80's FDM: Started in 2019 and became stable in 2020

And despite that they are still not perfectly matching the real plane. Close, but not perfect. There are still work to be done.

Systems? Well...
A320: our team started in 2016, we are still far from done
MD-11: I started in 2017, still far from done.

I think you get the picture. Developing a complex airliner takes a LONG time especially since we are all have a real life to do also.

But pls... not discuss this too much hear. A new topic is better.

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby V12 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:26 pm

Yes, I'm 100% sure that it is impossible make 1 aircraft in 18 days.
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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby helijah » Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:26 pm

V12 wrote in Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:23 am:300 models in 15 years = 1 aircraft per 18.25 days. With all due respect - unbelievable. Create model from blueprints, make textures, fine tune FDM, milions of FG restarts in this proces... I very much doubt that he is working on it himself


So here are insulting words I could be offended. I need an average of 5 full days to build a full model from scratch.Animations, FDM and textures included. Which makes you believe that this is impossible. Experience, organization, and passion allow this to happen without a problem.

Challenge me to make a model that doesn't exist and you will see. Of course, I must also like this model of course. Don't try to get me to do a modern liner which, to me, is irrelevant from a 3D modeling point of view. Write to me at embaranger@gmail.com

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Re: McDonnell Douglas MD-80 Development

Postby helijah » Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:34 pm

V12 wrote in Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:26 pm:Yes, I'm 100% sure that it is impossible make 1 aircraft in 18 days.


But that's crazy! Your certainties are your certainties. But the facts are there ! For example this Polikarpov I-5
Image
started on Monday July 19 and ended on Friday July 23. 5 days is more than enough. Certainly not to make a model so heavy that it will only be usable by a privileged few who have monstrous machines. But a flying plane. respecting the dimensions, the attitudes of the truth. With the necessary instruments. BumpMap, textures, animations etc .... And above all, a clean base with organized and correctly written files. Easy to modify, to improve. I don't pretend to be the most precise or the most elaborate, but I can do a plane like the one in 5 days. I know that's what I did!

It is also just a question of organization, experience and passion.
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Re: Improving the Daher TBM-930

Postby V12 » Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:08 pm

OK.
Try make from scratch Concorde. With all gauges , systems, FDM etc with realistic behaviour. FDM must simulate real plane, not Alladin's flying carpet.
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Re: Improving the Daher TBM-930

Postby wlbragg » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:06 pm

Really folks, it's our hobby here were discussing with a group of likeminded individuals (for the most part). We will never see all things identically, thus is the nature of life. It seems wrong to slam others over their choices as to how they pursue their hobby. 300+ models, or whatever the current number is, it's impressive. Given to everyone for free with no strings attached other than attribution, even more impressive. From my understanding, inspired and shared by family, young family at that, most impressive. I really don't see anything to criticize, only praise. I never look a gift horse in the mouth! Thank you @helijah for all your models.
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Re: Improving the Daher TBM-930

Postby helijah » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:05 pm

V12 wrote in Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:08 pm:OK.
Try make from scratch Concorde. With all gauges , systems, FDM etc with realistic behaviour. FDM must simulate real plane, not Alladin's flying carpet.


I always make it a rule not to duplicate FlightGear. Your request is ridiculous and totally irrelevant. Obviously my ERJ 145 took more than 5 days since I started to have a lot of instruments in the cockpit. But to say that to do a CH 53 or a Tupolev I4, a Polikarpov I-5 in 5 days is impossible is to show a total ignorance of what we are capable of doing.
Personally, I am unable to lift 800 kg, but that does not mean that I would say that lifting 800 kg is impossible for a man. My limits are not a generality. I certainly do not have that claim.
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Re: Improving the Daher TBM-930

Postby WoodSTokk » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:54 pm

V12 wrote in Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:08 pm:OK.
Try make from scratch Concorde. With all gauges , systems, FDM etc with realistic behaviour. FDM must simulate real plane, not Alladin's flying carpet.

This is not like Helijah work.
His aircrafts are not so detailed as some other ones, but thats okay. We have also users with middle to low end computers they cant load the A320 or some other high detailed aircrafts, but Helijahs aircrafts load fine with a good frame rate. Why?
Helijahs aircrafts have less verticies and polys but enough to look like a nice aircraft. So the 3d model isnt that heavy.
Also the textures are not in high resolution, but they look good and run on low end computers.
The point for Helijah is, that this aircraft exist in FG, not if all systems are correct and if all is working as in real. The point is you can fly it.
If a user want one of his aircraft better and detailed, everyone can fork it and give it a try.
Like wlbragg has done it with the Aircrane. For new developers its realy nice to have this aircraft as entry point, because they havnt so much files, only the important things and as a beginner you have a base where you can build on top or at least nice examples how the files work together.
As far as i can tell, Helijah has an extreme experience in Blender. He can build up nice models in a short time from scratch.
He has also a good feeling for the vertex count (not to much, but also not to less) so the model looks good and is not heavy.
Most of his aircrafts are small and the animations are the same. He developed in 15+ years a scheme of animation files that fits on most aircrafts.
Only thing is to adjust the rotating axis and maybe the deflection angle. You dont need more for the control surfaces.
With this working scheme and his experience, an aircraft is build up in some days up to a specific level.
If you want more, contact him to fork one aircraft and develop it to rise the level.
This is how Helijah work and FG has a benefit from that work, much more aircrafts than all other sims.
Big thanks and respect from my side to Helijah to build up this big aircraft base for FG and the community!

I know what it means to have a base where you can work on. I took over the Citation II in 2017.
I havnt developed it, it was allready there and it was a big advantage to have a base to work on.
What will be if the Citation II hasnt exist at that time? Had i developed it from scratch? I think not.
You have also improved the Concorde. Would you had developed it from scratch?
I think not. You has also the advantage that this aircraft exist at that time.
If you want a Concorde that behave as in real life, jump in and do it (why have you stoped?).
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