Board index FlightGear Development Aircraft

VC10 project under way - any interest?

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:44 am

Several VC10 projects have come and gone here over the years.
As all have come to nothing, I have started another one, and would like to start a collaboration group so that one can actually be completed.
My progress so far is to make a Blender model from scratch and then (with permission) cannibalised Flightgear´s existing 707 to uses as a template upon which to build the rest of a Flightgear aircraft model
Fortunately the 707 and VC10 have much in common - 4 Rolls Royce Conway engines, Bendix-Elliot PB20 autopilot, and similar avionics, instruments and systems. Both had civil and military, including in-flight refuelling, variants. Flighgear´s 707 already has these.
At the moment the cockpit is coming together, and should be flyable. It has a 707 instrument fit. I have been concentrating on the prototype version to start with.

My expertise is in FDM and aircraft systems and would prefer to devote my time to these.
I have gathered a reasonable collection of documents for reference use.
My background is that I worked on the aircraft in my student days, and afterwards whilst running the Vickers/BAC flight simulator at Weybridge used the VC10 (and the BAC1-11) as the basis for experimental company research projects.
So I am asking for help especially in Blender/ac3d matters.
At the moment the VC10 is sitting in a private git repo on my home server, but I will move this to GitHub as soon as there is any interest.

Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Octal450 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:50 am

That would be awesome. Let me know if you need any help with the autopilot ;)
Kind Regards,
Josh
Skillset: JSBsim Flight Dynamics, Systems, Canvas, Autoflight/Control, Instrumentation, Animations
Aircraft: A320-family, MD-11, MD-80, Contribs in a few others

Octal450's GitHub|Launcher Catalog
|Airbus Dev Discord|Octal450 Hangar Dev Discord
User avatar
Octal450
 
Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:51 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Callsign: WTF411
Version: next
OS: Windows 11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:44 am

Hi Josh. Hope you are well.

Thanks for the interest. Your input will be very helpful,

At the moment I have the 707 FDM and autopilot. Assuming I get help on the 3D modeling etc I will make up a new FDM using Datcom. I don't expect to test the autopilot until I have the new FDM working,.

The control laws should be quite similar to the 707. Perhaps the yaw damper and ILS/autoland wil need attention. VC10 had CAT III capability, but this was later abandoned due to hardware servicing problems. The pilots' instrument panels have quite a few autopilot monitoring indicators, which should be correctly aligned before autopilot engagement.
This document gives a good overview- https://rochesteravionicarchives.co.uk/document-archive/technical-papers/vc10-flight-control-system

As my first post-graduation job was working on VC10 and BAC 1-11 autopilots, I should be an expert. But this was a very long time ago, and we were more concerned at making the system reliable for autoland certification than tuning the control laws.

Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby CaptB » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:47 am

I'm busy with the A320 and other projects so I can't take on another, however I offer help/mentoring if you are interested in doing it yourself.
Ongoing projects(3D modelling): A320, MD-11, A350, B767
FG767: https://fg767.wordpress.com/
CaptB
 
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 7:36 pm
Callsign: EKCH_AP
IRC name: CaptB
Version: next
OS: Xubuntu

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Octal450 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:21 pm

Hi Alant,
I offered them a rewritten 707 ap and tweaked FDM over a year ago and I can't remember if it was taken or not. But I can say looking through the 707 FDM that it was rather generic. I would *strongly* suggest a redo.

- Split all control surfaces properly into each surface with degrees each way. Looks like a standard hydromech so you can do this with actuator!
- Then when you do your aero you can model the effect on each surface.

Example: https://github.com/Octal450/MD-11/blob/ ... 11-fcs.xml
There's alot of complications here for example simulating the drooping without pressure and such realistically, but I'm sure you get the point of what I mean. I'd suggest lines 422 to start as there is the elevators, simpler than ailerons but same concept.

The biggest advice I can give you you is to totally *disregard* the generic based autopilot and anything based on it.

Kind Regards,
Josh
Skillset: JSBsim Flight Dynamics, Systems, Canvas, Autoflight/Control, Instrumentation, Animations
Aircraft: A320-family, MD-11, MD-80, Contribs in a few others

Octal450's GitHub|Launcher Catalog
|Airbus Dev Discord|Octal450 Hangar Dev Discord
User avatar
Octal450
 
Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:51 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Callsign: WTF411
Version: next
OS: Windows 11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:58 pm

I will be treating each control surface separately in my Datcom model.

The surfaces are fully powered - there is even a windmill type hydraulic pump ( and a similar elctrical generator) which can be lowered in the event of a 4 engine flame-out.

The servos are quadruplex, mening that they are resiliant to multiple hydraulic or electric failures. This was Vickers and Elliots solution to meeting the CATIII autoland safety requirements.

Therfore to start with I will not be simulating the effects of low hydraulic pressure not being able to fight against airflow forces on the control surface. If needed this could come later and my FDM will have the capabilities built-in from the start,
Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Octal450 » Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:16 pm

Perfect, great!

Kind Regards,
Josh
Skillset: JSBsim Flight Dynamics, Systems, Canvas, Autoflight/Control, Instrumentation, Animations
Aircraft: A320-family, MD-11, MD-80, Contribs in a few others

Octal450's GitHub|Launcher Catalog
|Airbus Dev Discord|Octal450 Hangar Dev Discord
User avatar
Octal450
 
Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:51 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Callsign: WTF411
Version: next
OS: Windows 11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby N-SCOT » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:24 pm

I'd be happy to paint the beast in a multitude of liveries. Will there be a military transport / tanker (K) version included?

Cheers,

G
Gary Brown, aka N-SCOT
Favorite Aircraft: Military
Favorite FG activity: Livery generation
N-SCOT
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:17 pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida. Home of the "Fighting' Gators"!
Callsign: N-SCOT
Version: 2020.1.2
OS: OSX High Sierra

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:56 pm

Thanks for the offer, it will be very welcome. At the moment I am concentrating on the prototype, which was painted in BOAC colours. An RAF tanker version will follow to accompany my TSR2.
I have replied to your pm with more details.
Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Avionyx » Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:53 pm

Always interest in this!

I started on a Super VC-10 model years ago but got nowhere with it. There's a part finished external model rolling around somewhere but I haven't seen it for years.?
I'm really no modeller at all but if you need help with other bits then I'd be happy to do what's needed to ensure this see's the light of day.

Alex
Avionyx
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:07 pm
Location: EGMD
Callsign: G-AVYX
Version: 2020.4
OS: Manjaro

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:42 pm

Hi Avionyx
What would you be best at?
My start point is the existing 707 which is fairly complete. The 707 has the same RR Conway engines and Bendix autopilot. I have laid out the pilots´instrument panels and central pedestal with parts from the 707, some of which need changes. They need some cleaning up and additional levers added to the throttle/flap/airbrake line-up need adding. The overhead, engineer’s and navigator’s crew stations need to be put in their correct positions and populated. The control column and yoke need modifications to make them look like VC10 instead of 707.
I have a pdf of the crew manual and some other documents which will help.
The systems need checking to make them act like VC10 ones instead the 707.
That is just scratching the surface.
I am currently working on a Datcom/JSBsim FDM to replace the current 707 one. This should be representative up to Mach 0.9 or thereabout. After that I intend taking on the autopilot. Believe it or not I was a minor part of the VC10 and BAC1-11 autopilot development team in the late 1960´s. However that was a long time ago and I can´t remember that much of the detail ;)
Alan

Weight and balance (fuel, payload) etc need work so that C.G. and inertias are realistic over all loading conditions.
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Octal450 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:41 am

BAC1-11 autopilot development team in the late 1960

If you ever do find anything, I would LOVE to look over it. Autopilots are for me very very very interesting!

Also I would strongly advise in my FGFS development expirience, to build your own FDM and Autopilot from scratch and ignore the 707 ones. Pick and place from planes = unrealistic turnout most of the time. :(

Especially since the 707's systems have some problems (for example, hydraulics have no effect on anything, wrong simulation of entire flight control system, some other things)

Kind Regards,
Josh
Skillset: JSBsim Flight Dynamics, Systems, Canvas, Autoflight/Control, Instrumentation, Animations
Aircraft: A320-family, MD-11, MD-80, Contribs in a few others

Octal450's GitHub|Launcher Catalog
|Airbus Dev Discord|Octal450 Hangar Dev Discord
User avatar
Octal450
 
Posts: 5564
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:51 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL
Callsign: WTF411
Version: next
OS: Windows 11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:46 pm

The project is now on Github. https://github.com/alanjt/VC10

It has a selection of instruments from the 707, and the beginnings of a Datcom FDM, so can be flown.

Is there anybody here who can produce a paintkit? I have a volunteer who is keen to produce liveries if a paintkit can be provided.
The repo has the ac3d model. This was produced using Blender, which I can make available complete with reference drawings if this is required.

Thanks for any help. It is not a small project :)

Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Warty » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:56 pm

I think what Gary needs for painting liveries is a texture map making for the model of the fuselage (VC10.ac) . I can do this if you want.
User avatar
Warty
 
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:53 pm
Location: Spain
Callsign: Warty
Version: 2020.4.0
OS: Mac OS 13

Re: VC10 project under way - any interest?

Postby Alant » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:10 pm

Please.
I am busy with FDM at the moment and learning how to do a texture map would not be the best use of my time.
Is the .ac file sufficient, or do you want the blender original?
Any other help would be welcome.
Hope all is well over the border in Spain.
Thanks
Alan
Alant
 
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:58 am
Location: Portugal
Callsign: Tarnish99
Version: latest Git
OS: Windows 10/11

Next

Return to Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests