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General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby Johan G » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:00 am

cobe571 wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:42 am:[...] Just before this episode I received an email from Virtavia support asking me to delete or impose into this post that my model was a theft against them. We had a very sincere mail exchange and they actually found that my model is not the result of plagiarism or theft. Instead is a full retopoly job that occupied me years to be done. Indeed they (*Virtavia) offered with great kindness to give me help in continuing the development of this wonderful plane from every point of view including their source files in .gmax format. With the times that go by it is not unusual for such episodes to occur, but it is not my case and it will never be.

Zac wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:32 am:
cobe571 wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:42 am:they actually found that my model is not the result of plagiarism or theft. Instead is a full retopoly job that occupied me years to be done.

I know this is the case because I was the one to identify this as a blatant rip from their database after comparing the two. The very fact that you have removed the wireframe is clear evidence you don't want people comparing the Virtavia model and your model. After a retopo graphical errors like that on the wing don't get left in by coincidence (still present in the mesh renders you posted by the way - might wanna fix that up). After a retopo vertices don't get left in exactly the same places.


Johan G wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:54 am:I can of course not speak for all of us, but there have been projects going on in the past with at least some additional contributors that did not end up in a hangar, official or other, because of copyright infringement. People hate to see time invested end up being wasted.

cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:Instead of playing at making people well educated and with fine and refined ways, let's face the reality of the facts. Here we play the parts of a small group of men with doubtful talent and very questionable ways. Very young men who believe that they have undisputed dominion over everything; who claim the right to be able to put their mouths on everything despite having no reason to do it. Little men who do not scruple to put others in a bad light to raise themselves up.

[...]

Maybe Mr. Zac could have sent me a private message, but no, he didn't. He, the champion of the law, contacted Virtavia's support directly by making accusations against me that could have led to very serious legal consequences. Luckily, however, I talked to Phil, the copyright holder of the Virtavia model and this has been resolved for the better.

Zac wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:41 am:
cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:Maybe Mr. Zac could have sent me a private message, but no, he didn't. He, the champion of the law, contacted Virtavia's support directly by making accusations against me that could have led to very serious legal consequences.

I did not contact Virtavia.

He and someone else was obviously certain that your model was stolen, and I would probably have acted the same way. In fact I recently did, though in that case it was a FlightGear contributor whose models where offered somewhere else under wrong license. With Phils response (see further down) I consider this resolved.

cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:How come only my posts have been censored, while every direct attack I received was left there?

[...]

So if you want to moderate something, do it in its entirety. Remove the insults and allusions in its entirety, because leaving them you play the same game as those who perpetrate this type of defamatory behavior.

I am not going to remove the fact that someone accused you of stealing the 3D model any more than than I will remove the email response from Phil at Virtavia. And yes, I understand your frustration, but rather than having that happening again later I would rater leave both.

From Phils email response it is obvious that whoever took contact with Virtavia did not have the whole picture, and your model can be used:
cobe571 wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:48 pm:I enclose again the full text of Phil's reply if there are other doubts, just reread carefully.

Thank you for your explanation Patrizio. My e-mail had to be strongly
worded as there are some people who just copy our work and say it is
theirs, we even had people selling our models for profit on Turbosquid
and it was hard to get them taken down, so this was in my mind when I
saw the images of the F-111. I can see now I was mistaken and this is
definitely not what you are doing, I regret sending the message. I do
not want to discourage a fellow developer, so PLEASE do not abandon the
project, you can continue with it with the permission of Virtavia, you
can say this in the forum if you like, you not need to make any
statements about copyright. I would really like to see this model in
FlightGear. The community will really love it.


It may have been that (I think) the old FS9 version was freeware for a
brief time and that's what you downloaded. If this is the case, which it
seems to be, then I am the one who should apologise. Re-start the
thread. I urge you to continue with the F-111 model, I will even provide
you with any help if you need it. The F-111 source files are in .gmax
format, you can have them if you like ? Even if you don't use GMax it
might help to see how the animations work.

My apologies,

Phil,
Virtavia


cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:Perhaps because it is the "spectacle of blood" that attracts people and finding someone to put on the cross is easier than having an examination of conscience on one's way of acting. Have you noticed how my post has raised up from less than 200 views to over 800 views in a day? Ask yourself a few questions about why.

I can assure you that I have no interest in creating conflict. It will detract people from the main thing I want to see around here and why I enjoy being here: Seeing people start with baby steps and learning more stuff and perhaps even creating something, and see them growing in the process. That is also why have not completely left even though I have not used FlightGear for years myself.

cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:[...] it should be emphasized that almost every time I bring one of my projects to the forum there is someone who gets irritated, someone who questions my work [...]

Unfortunately no matter what one does, there will always be someone who disagrees. Even ones sheer existence might be enough to trigger someone. And there is no way around it. :( Just do things to your best ability and accept that, unfortunately, someone will still be unhappy about it.

cobe571 wrote in Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 am:In fact, I have never received any help from anyone. So which contributors are we talking about? Hypothetical contributors perhaps. Because in reality I have never seen anything.

[...]

In my project there are no contributors because nobody works with me on this project or into other projects that I carry out. The interests are elsewhere and nobody invests his time in helping me to carry out any of my projects. Those few times that happened it was a few lines of code that I could have written myself or that I could have asked my cat who would do it even better than me.

While you may not have received help in the way of getting drafts or halfway complete files for your aircraft, at least here people have tried their best to encourage you by pointing you to various resources of which some are really good. If there is anything to take away from all this at least consider that. :)


Edit: Zac posted that he did not contact Virtavia while I wrote this (long) reply.
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby cobe571 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:41 am

I know this is the case because I was the one to identify this as a blatant rip from their database after comparing the two.


I don't suffer from any frustration. I don't have time for such emotions. Indeed, I am more than serene because I am aware of my work. Mr. Zac instead with his own words admitted that he was the one who identified the alleged plagiarism. He condemns himself with his own words. His every attempt to manipulate the facts in retrospect denotes one and only thing: that in him malignity reigns, bad faith and a tendency to cast a bad light on others, to raise himself and his favorite friends. His deplorable behavior identifies who he is, not who I am or how I act. So please and I'm asking for it, please note, let's finish it here and finish it now.

It could have been a wonderful project. A project that would bring something new to this simulator, instead the same attitudes are always repeated. The accusations, the insinuations, the offenses and the denigration. This is a dirty game. And for the pleasure of a small group of small, miserable, envious and jealous men who need to raise themselves, we get these results.

Tonight there have been several attempts to access my private email and my operating system all failed miserably. Is the intention to boycott my job? You will not succeed. This morning I filed a complaint against unknown persons to the competent authorities (The Police) for attempts to gain unauthorized access to my email and my operating system. When I'll know (and I will know) who is carrying out these attacks will be problems and they will be big problems for someone. I have nothing else to add to this pathetic nursery scene.

Unlike someone, I have a clear conscience. Unlike someone I put my face on, my name and surname. I don't hide myself behind an anonymous account.
Said that the development will continue that you like or dislike it. You found the wrong guy to fight with.

Have a good day you all.

Patrizio.
"According to the laws of aerodynamics, the bumblebee can't fly either, but the bumblebee doesn't know anything about the laws of aerodynamics, so it goes ahead and flies anyway."
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby D-ECHO » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:12 pm

I am almost 100% sure, that nobody here is trying to harm you, and I am as well confident that nobody from FG tried to hack your Computer. Yes, this could have been resolved better than it was, but I think you might become a bit paranoid currently. Lets dont make this bigger and most importantly not more personal than necessary, and this one maybe goes out to both sides, please dont fuel a fire that just destroys what we love the most here.
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby cobe571 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:46 pm

@D-ECHO

I didn't know that taking a stand to defend myself from certain unfounded accusations also meant being paranoid. Where is it written who I am accusing someone in this forum? You are adding this detail, not me. Because I never wrote it. I just said I made a police report against unknown ppl. This is what I said. Sooner or later the truth will come out and then we will see who is right and who is not. I fully agree with you that it could have been resolved differently. But those same people who accused me are the same ones who hide behind anonymity, so what are we talking about for consistency of the facts? I love this simulator from many years. I spent countless sleepless nights working on my projects alone. And in the end I get accusations, insinuations, insults and denigration from people who don't even have the courage (the balls) to put their faces on it because they are little cowards. What does this mean to you? Explain pls. Is this the lesson to learn? That I have to bow my head in front of a small group of underdeveloped pseudo men who must necessarily insinuate doubt, cast shadows on me to raise themselves, being hidden behind an anonymous account? I'm not that kind of person, I'm sorry for you. I am not manageable and I will never be. I don't bend my head in front of this kind of bullies and I will never do it.

Best regards

Patrizio.
"According to the laws of aerodynamics, the bumblebee can't fly either, but the bumblebee doesn't know anything about the laws of aerodynamics, so it goes ahead and flies anyway."
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby Thorsten » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:12 pm

Okay gentlemen - there's a clear written statement that tells Patrizio that what he's doing is okay, encouraged and supported - that's good enough to clear any doubts as far as licensing is concerned - so let's focus on development again.
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:37 pm

cobe571 wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:48 pm:Every aspect that needed to be clarified was brought to the attention of the people responsible for that copyright. The only one who personally holds the copyright of the Virtavia 3D model. With him (Phil) we have clarified precisely the thing and it has been confirmed to me that I can go on with my work. [snip] Go ahead on your way too, that I go on mine. I enclose again the full text of Phil's reply if there are other doubts, just reread carefully.
A warm greeting to all of you


To you as well.


That is good that it has been sorted satisfactorily by communication with the owner. That message from Virtavia is entirely satisfactory, and looking forward to seeing what you can do with this model.

My post was based on the information which you had posted at the point, where you said:
Virtavia does not claim any copyright on my model, so why should someone else do it for them?


This very much sounded that you were assuming that because there was no explicit copyright notice that there was no copyright on the model. That would certainly be totally incorrect. But as it turns out that you in fact had received permission from Virtava, in that case, certainly there is no issue here.

Perhaps this document may be of assistance - the flight manual of the F variant: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MLXzyo7NRVNm1p1pSFtCzlC_HK40zFJ-

By the way, in future it would be well worth confirming such permission before starting in future, because derivative works are a very gray area, should they not give explicit permission to release the model under your license of choice. Just for your consideration to avoid any future problems ;)
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby cobe571 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:41 pm

That is good that it has been sorted satisfactorily by communication with the owner. (...) But as it turns out that you in fact had received permission from Virtava, in that case, certainly there is no issue here.


Thanks for the document, but I have already owned it for some time ago. Note that I am very satisfied with my 3D work and will carry it forward without a doubt. But I don't know when it will end at this point, after this degrading show. In all honesty, the list of planes I have to complete is so long that I need an army of programmers to complete all my tasks. The 3D models are all ready to use, some more, some less. I have not been idle in recent years working on one single plane as someone in the recent past has dared to say. Here is a short list of my planes:

A12 Avenger II
Aermacchi MB-326-E
Alenia C-27J
Alenia Embraer AMX
B-47 Stratojet
B-52H Stratofortress
Blohm & Voss BV 138
Boeing Bird Of Prey
Canberra WB-57F
Caproni CA133
Cassut
Extra EA300
F8F-2 Bearcat
F117
Fiat CR 32
Fiat G91R
General-Dynamics F-111F
Grumman G21
Have Blue
ICP Savannah
KA 26
Lockheed F104
Lockheed U-2S
Macchi 205
Payen PA46
Seaknight
SIAI 208M
Savoia Marchetti SM 79
Snoshoo SR1
Stearman
Su-35 SuperFlanker
Su-47 Berkut
TARDIS
UFOv2
Westland Lynx AH7
X-24A Lifting Body
X-24B Lifting Body
X-29A
X-33
X-45A UCAV
X-47
YF-12A
YF-17 Cobra

A warm greeting to you all.
Take care & Stay safe.

Patrizio.
"According to the laws of aerodynamics, the bumblebee can't fly either, but the bumblebee doesn't know anything about the laws of aerodynamics, so it goes ahead and flies anyway."
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby Richard » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:42 pm

cobe571 wrote in Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:14 pm:Now, speaking about more serious things, here is the first table that refers to the TF30-P-100 engines


I've been working on the TF-30 engines for a while (because of the F-14A); and there is an interesting report https://www.scientific.net/AMM.799-800.885 specifically Figure 1 Comparison of GA propulsive model and actual cruise thrust values of TF-30 turbofan Engine - because it has values for thrust at altitude and mach - which is just what we need.

Image

From this I've made a normalized table

Code: Select all
   0   10000   20000   30000   35000   36089   40000   45000
0.0   1.000000   0.803397   0.572200   0.242896   0.210994   0.195463   0.078367   0.043212
0.2   0.881084   0.701247   0.523986   0.282433   0.237882   0.219164   0.122508   0.083848
0.4   0.804974   0.658839   0.504964   0.321970   0.264771   0.242865   0.166647   0.124484
0.6   0.747443   0.641290   0.502543   0.358275   0.290946   0.271333   0.210787   0.165120
0.8   0.698056   0.624156   0.505708   0.386999   0.319891   0.305378   0.250701   0.201208
1.0   0.652371   0.591138   0.507113   0.405529   0.349636   0.329624   0.277992   0.221549
1.2   0.595840   0.531190   0.497454   0.424059   0.379448   0.329624   0.299089   0.241208
1.4   0.533954   0.466705   0.484761   0.442589   0.409259   0.329624   0.320185   0.260867
1.6   0.472066   0.402219   0.472068   0.461120   0.439071   0.329624   0.341280   0.280527

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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby cobe571 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:54 pm

I've been working on the TF-30 engines for a while (because of the F-14A); and there is an interesting report https://www.scientific.net/AMM.799-800.885 specifically Figure 1 Comparison of GA propulsive model and actual cruise thrust values of TF-30 turbofan Engine - because it has values for thrust at altitude and mach - which is just what we need.


I'm lookin at these documents.

Thank you Richard

P.
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Re: General-Dynamics_F-111F for FlightGear - GPL v.2

Postby cobe571 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:30 pm

Hello everyone,

In recent days I have received an email from Phil, by Virtavia. I want to share it with you, because as you can read he will also support the other F-111C developer. I want to clarify that if he (*the developer) had an interest in joining forces with me I would be very happy. So you can have two versions instead of one. Version C and version F.


Hello Patrizio,

I apologize for this very late reply, this e-mail isn't one I check very often.

I've attached the GMax source for the exterior model to this e-mail. I have some .PSD files as well, although I imagine you will be creating your own textures. Let me know if you need them. I will send the source file for the VC in a separate e-mail, as two large attachments might get the message blocked.

You should know I am also supporting an FG project to produce an Australian F-111C, although this guy is making his own cockpit.

Best of luck with your project and thank you for allowing me to repair my earlier error of judgement.

Regards,



I hope with this message we can find a way to make the development of this splendid plane that is missing in the official FlighGear Hangar more serene. Anyone who wants to contribute is welcome.

Best regards

~P.
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