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Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

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Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:20 pm

I'm not quite sure whether this is the right place to ask: Does anyone have an idea about the FDM realism of the Turbo Porter (FGAddon)? Currently, I am flying it a lot in mountain areas of Nepal, India and Pakistan after a great amount of training for ground control, take off and landing which appear quite convincing including destruction of the turbine or whole aircraft due to major mistakes.

What strikes me as possibly unrealistic is a very good climb performance (I can climb with full payload more than 1.500 ft/min with 80 kias) and very good high altitude performance. The absolute ceiling is said to be 25.000 ft, at my last trip to the K2 in Pakistan with very low load I was easily able to go to more than 27.000 ft with still decent climb rate.

Is this a partcularly powerful aircraft or does the FDM work with too much power?

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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:23 pm

you could check with the maintainer of the craft and see if they have any new updates to the craft that you could test...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby wlbragg » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:48 pm

Wiki for the real thing says ...
Service ceiling: 8,197 m (25,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 4.8 m/s (941 ft/min)
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:49 pm

Thx, sent a pm to DFaber who seems to have developed the aircraft, I am not sure whether he or anyone ist maintaining it.
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:51 pm

wlbragg wrote in Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:48 pm:Wiki for the real thing says ...
Service ceiling: 8,197 m (25,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 4.8 m/s (941 ft/min)


Yep, got that and it made me suspicious.
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby danielHL » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:21 pm

I thought I could fix this issue this afternoon but when digging a little deeper the problem is more severe. It looks like the author modeled the entire pt6a engine and the propeller and their effects in nasal and applied the results via yasim directional thrusters. At first glance I thought it was just a static thruster coupled to the throttle lever which would explain the constant thrust and climb performance even at altitude. But it seems more complicated than this...

If you want to investigate have a look at engine.nas where the power property is set. This is applied in yasim to the thrusters hooked up to the throttle lever...
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby DFaber » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:56 pm

danielHL wrote in Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:21 pm: It looks like the author modeled the entire pt6a engine and the propeller and their effects in nasal and applied the results via yasim directional thrusters. At first glance I thought it was just a static thruster coupled to the throttle lever which would explain the constant thrust and climb performance even at altitude. But it seems more complicated than this...


The Author of the Engine Code, JeeP, did a very nifty work on that machine, and I hesitate to call me the Author, as only the exterior 3D Model is mine. The Cockpit Models and a lot of FDM Work is his. However, I will have a look at it and see what I can do.

Greetings

Detlef
Detlef Faber
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http://flightgear-de.net

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http://forum.flightgear-de.net
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:24 pm

I must say, I am greatly impressed that you guys take this up. The PC-6 is a great aircraft and there is no serious alternative to its performance and mission possiblities in FG, as far as I can see.

Sorry that I can't help with programming, developing etc. If I can help to test and to share flying experience, I'd be delighted to do so.

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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby danielHL » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:45 pm

I think in terms of mission statement and usage, the DHC-6 should be mentioned as well. It's also a STOL aircraft and equally capable of delivering self-unloading cargo to 13000ft ;-)

I will make an experiment and re-enable the yasim turboprop and see where that takes us.
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby danielHL » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:34 pm

The following Patch re-enables the yasim turboprop and keeps most of the yasim stats basically the same:

Code: Select all
Index: pc6-b2h4-yasim.xml
===================================================================
--- pc6-b2h4-yasim.xml   (revision 3747)
+++ pc6-b2h4-yasim.xml   (working copy)
@@ -13,8 +13,10 @@
 
    <!-- Approach configuration -->
    <approach speed="52" aoa="12">
-      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="0.3"/>
-      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
+      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="0.3"/>
+        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
+        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle" value="0.3" />
+        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/condition" value="1" />
       <control-setting axis="/controls/flight/flaps" value="1.0"/>
       <control-setting axis="/controls/gear/gear-down" value="1"/>
    </approach>
@@ -21,9 +23,11 @@
    
    <!-- Cruise configuration -->
    <cruise speed="140" alt="10000">
-      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="1.0"/>
-      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
-      <control-setting axis="/controls/flight/flaps" value="0.0"/>
+      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="1.0"/>
+      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
+      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle" value="1" />
+        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/condition" value="1" />
+        <control-setting axis="/controls/flight/flaps" value="0.0"/>
       <control-setting axis="/controls/gear/gear-down" value="1"/>
    </cruise>
    
@@ -73,12 +77,12 @@
    </mstab>
    
    <!--nasal propeller 2 thrusters to generate "helicoidale" torque-->
-   <thruster vx="1" vy="0" vz="0.25" x="-0.25" y="-1.0" z="0.0" thrust="1250">
+   <!--<thruster vx="1" vy="0" vz="0.25" x="-0.25" y="-1.0" z="0.0" thrust="1250">
       <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" control="THROTTLE"/>   
    </thruster>
    <thruster vx="1" vy="0" vz="-0.25" x="-0.25" y="1.0" z="0.0" thrust="1250">
       <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" control="THROTTLE"/>   
-   </thruster>
+    </thruster> -->
 
    <!--nasal reverse propeller-->
    <thruster vx="-1" vy="0.0" vz="0" x="-0.3" y="0.0" z="0.0" thrust="2000">
@@ -86,7 +90,7 @@
    </thruster>
 
    <!-- nasal turbo prop ... -->
-   <!--
+   
    <propeller x="-0.0" y="0.0" z="0.0" mass="550" moment="42" radius="1.28" cruise-speed="90" cruise-rpm="2000" cruise-power="500" cruise-alt="6000" min-rpm="850" max-rpm="2200">
       <turbine-engine eng-power="550" eng-rpm="2200" alt="6000" flat-rating="550" max-n2="90" bsfc="0.46" spool-time="4"/>
       <actionpt x="-0.22" y="0.0" z="0.0"/>
@@ -96,7 +100,7 @@
       <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/propeller-pitch" control="ADVANCE"/>
       <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/propeller-feather" control="PROPFEATHER"/>
    </propeller>
-   -->
+
    
     <!-- left main -->
    <gear x="-3.195" y="1.5" z="-1.65" compression="0.15" spring="1.3" dfric="0.8" sfric ="0.8">
@@ -134,6 +138,6 @@
    <weight x="-5.90" y="-0.30" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[10]/weight-lb"/>
    
    <!-- to adjust gravity center-->
-   <ballast x="0" y="0.0" z="0" mass="250"/> --><!--donne un CG a 4.8 -->
+   <ballast x="-10" y="0.0" z="0" mass="340"/> --><!--donne un CG a 4.8 -->
 
 </airplane>


Yasim CLI output before:
Code: Select all
YASim warning: possible convergence problem.
==========================
= YASim solution results =
==========================
Iterations        : 489
Drag Coefficient  : 101.731
Lift Ratio        : 11.367
Cruise AoA        : -3.15 deg
Tail Incidence    : 9.49 deg
Approach Elevator : -0.300

CG                : x:-4.800, y:0.000, z:0.704
Wing MAC          : (x:-3.52, y:4.49), length:1.9
hard limit CG-x   : -3.195 m
soft limit CG-x   : -4.000 m
CG-x              : -4.800 m
CG-x rel. MAC     :  67%
soft limit CG-x   : -4.095 m
hard limit CG-x   : -10.750 m

wing lever        : 0.800 m
tail lever        : -5.003 m

max thrust        : 1.89 kN
thrust/empty      : 0.14
thrust/mtow       : inf

wing span         : 16.73 m
sweep lead. edge  : 0.0 .. 0.0 deg
wing area         : 29.45 m^2
wing load empty   : 45.29 kg/m^2 (Empty 1334 kg)
wing load MTOW    : 0.00 kg/m^2 (MTOW  0 kg)

tail span         : 4.624 m
tail area         : 5.808 m^2

#wing sections: 1
Section 0 base point: x="-4.475" y="0.618" z="0.821" chord="1.900" incidence="2.0" (at section root in deg)

Inertia tensor [kg*m^2], origo at CG:

    22184,      -0,     474
       -0,    9256,       0
      474,       0,   31021


Yasim CLI output with yasim turboprop:
Code: Select all
YASim warning: possible convergence problem.
==========================
= YASim solution results =
==========================
Iterations        : 832
Drag Coefficient  : 20.341
Lift Ratio        : 59.408
Cruise AoA        : -3.27 deg
Tail Incidence    : 7.71 deg
Approach Elevator : -0.487

CG                : x:-4.808, y:0.000, z:0.551
Wing MAC          : (x:-3.52, y:4.49), length:1.9
hard limit CG-x   : -3.195 m
soft limit CG-x   : -4.000 m
CG-x              : -4.808 m
CG-x rel. MAC     :  68%
soft limit CG-x   : -4.095 m
hard limit CG-x   : -10.750 m

wing lever        : 0.808 m
tail lever        : -4.995 m

max thrust        : -4.56 kN
thrust/empty      : -0.35
thrust/mtow       : -inf

wing span         : 16.73 m
sweep lead. edge  : 0.0 .. 0.0 deg
wing area         : 29.45 m^2
wing load empty   : 45.29 kg/m^2 (Empty 1334 kg)
wing load MTOW    : 0.00 kg/m^2 (MTOW  0 kg)

tail span         : 4.624 m
tail area         : 5.808 m^2

#wing sections: 1
Section 0 base point: x="-4.475" y="0.618" z="0.821" chord="1.900" incidence="2.0" (at section root in deg)

Inertia tensor [kg*m^2], origo at CG:

    17313,      -0,     349
       -0,   15107,       0
      349,       0,   31853


It still flies a bit "funny", the FDM has to be tuned. I wouldn't put much confidence in the lift and drag values of the old version because of the "creative" use of yasim in this model. The new values are definitely more sensible. At least you can still destory the engine by "flooring it" or over-torqueing. The nasal magic still seems to work.
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:06 pm

Sorry to have to ask: how do I get the patch into the aircraft program? Exchange completely in the pc6-b2h4-yasim.xml file or only parts of it? Simple answer or link to a "Howto" (haven't found one)? How can I test?

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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby danielHL » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:02 pm

Of course, no problem. If you're on linux it's easy. You copy'n'paste that to a file named turboprop.patch in the PC-6 directory. In that directory you simply put

Code: Select all
patch -i turboprop.patch


in the command line and the patch is applied.

If you're on windows you have to rely on 3rd-party tools, maybe tortoise-svn and the svn patch command. I don't know how this stuff works, though.

But as a last hope it's not so difficult to read the patch file yourself and apply the changes by hand, it's only a few lines. In the patch file there are hints like @@ -13,8 which means that in this file at line 13, something starts to change. You look at the following block and every line that has a "-" in front has to be deleted, each line with a "+" has to be added and each line with " " is unchanged and just for reference. You'll see that most line changes just add or move a few comments or add some additional lines. So with few changes you could produce the new version yourself.

If you don't get this done, here's the entire new yasim file for reference:
Code: Select all
<?xml version="1.0"?>

<!--
************************************************************************
YASim aerodynamic model for Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter

allowed CG Range 4.015-4.186

-->


<airplane mass="2940">

   <!-- Approach configuration -->
   <approach speed="52" aoa="12">
      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="0.3"/>
        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle" value="0.3" />
        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/condition" value="1" />
      <control-setting axis="/controls/flight/flaps" value="1.0"/>
      <control-setting axis="/controls/gear/gear-down" value="1"/>
   </approach>
   
   <!-- Cruise configuration -->
   <cruise speed="140" alt="10000">
      <!--<control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" value="1.0"/>
      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/condition" value="1.0"/>-->
      <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle" value="1" />
        <control-setting axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/condition" value="1" />
        <control-setting axis="/controls/flight/flaps" value="0.0"/>
      <control-setting axis="/controls/gear/gear-down" value="1"/>
   </cruise>
   
   <!-- pilot's eyepoint -->
   <cockpit x="-4.495" y="0" z="0.689"/>
   
   <fuselage ax="0.0" ay="0.0" az="-0.0" bx="-11.0" by="0.0" bz="0.3" width="1.4" taper="0.3" midpoint="0.5" />
   
   <!--Main Wing -->
   <wing x="-4.475" y="0.618" z="0.821" taper="1.0" incidence="2.0" idrag="1.3" length="7.75" chord="1.9" dihedral="1.0" camber="0.2">
      <stall aoa="11" width="8" peak="1.3"/>
      <flap0 start="0.0" end="0.43" lift="1.7" drag="1.9"/>
      <flap1 start="0.43" end="0.9" lift="1.5" drag="1.1"/>
      
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/flaps" control="FLAP0"/>
      <control-output control="FLAP0" prop="/surface-positions/flap-pos-norm"/>
      <control-speed control="FLAP0" transition-time="7"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/aileron" control="FLAP1" split="true"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/aileron-trim" control="FLAP1" split="true"/>
      <!--to simulate wing destruction-->
      <spoiler start="0" end="1.0" lift="10" drag="0"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/wing_destroyed" control="SPOILER" split="true"/>
   </wing>
   
   
   <hstab x="-10.133" y="0.112" z="0.508" taper="1.0" camber="0.0" length="2.2" chord="1.32" sweep="0" incidence="-2.0">
      <stall aoa="16" width="16" peak="1.2"/>
      <flap0 start="0.0" end="1.0" lift="1.7" drag="1.7"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/elevator" control="FLAP0"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/elevator-trim" control="FLAP0"/>
      <control-output control="FLAP0" prop="/surface-positions/elevator-pos-norm"/>
   </hstab>
   
   <!-- rudder has to be able to counteract aileron drag -->
   <vstab x="-9.66" y="0" z="0.606" taper="1.0" length="2.0" chord="1.3" sweep="0" >
      <stall aoa="15" width="10" peak="1.5"/>
      <flap0 start="0" end="1" lift="1.6" drag="1.4"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/rudder" control="FLAP0" invert="true"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/flight/rudder-trim" control="FLAP0" invert="true"/>
      <control-output control="FLAP0" prop="/surface-positions/rudder-pos-norm" min="1" max="-1"/>
   </vstab>
   
   <!--false wing used to simulate beta range of the propeller, which is used to brake in air without reverse the propeller-->
   <mstab x="-0.3" y="0" z="0" taper="1" length="1.28" chord="0.2" incidence="0">
      <spoiler start="0.0" end="1.0" lift="0" drag="100"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power_beta" control="SPOILER"/>
   </mstab>
   
   <!--nasal propeller 2 thrusters to generate "helicoidale" torque-->
   <!--<thruster vx="1" vy="0" vz="0.25" x="-0.25" y="-1.0" z="0.0" thrust="1250">
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" control="THROTTLE"/>   
   </thruster>
   <thruster vx="1" vy="0" vz="-0.25" x="-0.25" y="1.0" z="0.0" thrust="1250">
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power" control="THROTTLE"/>   
    </thruster> -->

   <!--nasal reverse propeller-->
   <thruster vx="-1" vy="0.0" vz="0" x="-0.3" y="0.0" z="0.0" thrust="2000">
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/pt6a/power_reverse" control="THROTTLE"/>   
   </thruster>

   <!-- nasal turbo prop ... -->
   
   <propeller x="-0.0" y="0.0" z="0.0" mass="550" moment="42" radius="1.28" cruise-speed="90" cruise-rpm="2000" cruise-power="500" cruise-alt="6000" min-rpm="850" max-rpm="2200">
      <turbine-engine eng-power="550" eng-rpm="2200" alt="6000" flat-rating="550" max-n2="90" bsfc="0.46" spool-time="4"/>
      <actionpt x="-0.22" y="0.0" z="0.0"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/throttle" control="THROTTLE"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/condition" control="CONDLEVER"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/starter" control="STARTER"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/propeller-pitch" control="ADVANCE"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/engines/engine[0]/propeller-feather" control="PROPFEATHER"/>
   </propeller>

   
    <!-- left main -->
   <gear x="-3.195" y="1.5" z="-1.65" compression="0.15" spring="1.3" dfric="0.8" sfric ="0.8">
      <control-input axis="/controls/gear/brake-left" control="BRAKE"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/gear/brake-parking" control="BRAKE" split="true"/>
   </gear>
   
   <!-- right main -->
   <gear x="-3.195" y="-1.5" z="-1.65" compression="0.15" spring="1.3" dfric="0.8" sfric ="0.8">
      <control-input axis="/controls/gear/brake-right" control="BRAKE"/>
      <control-input axis="/controls/gear/brake-parking" control="BRAKE" split="true"/>
   </gear>
   
   <!-- Tail wheel -->
   <gear x="-10.75" y="0" z="-0.47" compression="0.1" castering="1" dfric="0.6" sfric ="0.4">
      <control-input axis="/controls/gear/tailwheel-lock" src0="0" src1="1" dst0="1" dst1="0" control="CASTERING" />
   </gear>
   

   <!-- source: http://pilatus-aircraft.com/00-def/main/scripts/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Downloads/Brochures/Pilatus%20Aircraft%20Ltd%20-%20PC-6.pdf -->
   <tank x="-4.475" y="3.4" z="0.821" capacity="567.7" jet="true"/> <!-- 515kg total, converted to pounds -->
   <tank x="-4.475" y="-3.4" z="0.821" capacity="567.7" jet="true"/>
   
   
   <weight x="-3.54" y="0.28" z="0" mass-prop="/sim/weight[0]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-3.36" y="-0.30" z="-0.24" mass-prop="/sim/weight[1]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-4.23" y="0.28" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[2]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-4.68" y="0.28" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[3]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-5" y="0.28" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[4]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-5.49" y="0.28" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[5]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-5.92" y="0.28" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[6]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-3.96" y="-0.30" z="-0.37" mass-prop="/sim/weight[7]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-4.69" y="-0.30" z="-0.37" mass-prop="/sim/weight[8]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-5.38" y="-0.30" z="-0.37" mass-prop="/sim/weight[9]/weight-lb"/>
   <weight x="-5.90" y="-0.30" z="-0.13" mass-prop="/sim/weight[10]/weight-lb"/>
   
   <!-- to adjust gravity center-->
   <ballast x="-10" y="0.0" z="0" mass="340"/> --><!--donne un CG a 4.8 -->

</airplane>


I've basically commented out the two thrusters, re-enabled the turboprop element, fixed the CG because of different mass distribution with an actual engine present, and attached the new engine to the cruise and approach configurations.
danielHL / GVA0387 / D-FMPW / (UA83DAN)
danielHL
 
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby Oswald » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:21 pm

Thank you Daniel, tried it out tonight (patch work worked well once I understood the idea), but the aircraft does very funny things indeed already on the ground: Forward movement without engine or gravitation, hardly being stopped by brakes. Didn't get it into the air to try anything else.
Oswald
 
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Re: Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter FDM

Postby DFaber » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:12 am

Oswald wrote in Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:21 pm: Forward movement without engine or gravitation, hardly being stopped by brakes.


the re-activated turbine engine is running on startup. The Animations of Propeller and instruments are tied to the thruster-nasal engine and don't respond correct. There a lot of things to be fixed.

Greetings
Detlef Faber
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