Board index FlightGear Development Aircraft

FIAT G91-R1B

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Hooray » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:21 pm

if you don't have a commit history, you certainly have shared numerous screenshots of your ongoing work with others - which may also be helpful.
Otherwise, I'd suggest not touch the whole thing - if in doubt, read on the incidents involcing the infamous Honda jet, and/or anything involving GrTux contributions and how they ended up being pulled from the repo, despite "actually" being GPL'ed.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Thorsten » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:53 pm

Since Cobe571 has not made a deposit of the work and has not entered a link to reach it, here is a situation for which it can not have any claim.


That's unfortunately fundamentally not true. You get to be copyright holder by the act of creating something, not by the act of publishing it.

(Of course trying to prove your copyright might require making the work available to a limited audience).

Anyway - if you have created a new model from scratch, you'll have no difficulty proving it.

and/or anything involving GrTux contributions and how they ended up being pulled from the repo


Actually they did not - they just deleted their own devel repo, but what was with FG still is.
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Hooray » Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:59 pm

okay, maybe I am wrong, but I seem to remember some public discussion where GrTux actually asked for his work to be removed - but it's been too long to remember any details without looking into the archives. I do think that Curt was suggesting at the time he was going to comply with his wish ...
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby abassign » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:37 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:16 pm:Gentlemen, it would be wise to place yourself into the shoes of a committer. If I get a note that a 3d model has been stolen, and I allow the model to appear on the repository, it is my legal responsibility if the allegation goes to court.
... which is why I asked to see a commit/development history. Why don't you show it? ...


It's funny that you ask us authors of a work that we are preparing to publish in a repository under the GNU license, to defend ourselves against one who claims to be thieves.
The law of the Italian republic, but I also think of the country where you live, says that those who publicly accuse must bring evidence for his accusation, otherwise it can be reported for defamation by those accused.
If you want to give an opinion on the matter, YOU ARE YOU to ask whoever accuses the information that he brings in favor of his thesis, not to us to prove something that we do not know what it is. Look, this is the most childish basis of law that applies to any dispute between people.
If instead in your country there is a dictatorship, the thing can be different, in those countries often the prosecution does not bring the evidence and instead asks the accused to exculpate himself.
The example of the Shuttle is very clear, you can do all your good work, but if I accuse you and say you are a thief, but at the same time I do not tell you why. If you are consistent with what you said before, you should remove as a precaution (you have affirmed yourself with the concept of responsibility), your magnificent Shuttle from the repository and prove that it is the result of your work.
This means that your affirmation of doubt about our work is legitimate, but must itself be accompanied by evidence, otherwise you put yourself on a par with the one who accuses you and therefore makes you absolutely incapable of being able to express a judgment. If you do not have the evidence you have to ask those who accuse, if those who accuse you have not been since then it is also clear to you that we are in a case of "fumus persecutionis" (it is a legal expression, which indicates that the actions performed by a legal entity do not seem dictated by law enforcement or search for truth, but by the intention to harm a specific person or other entity).

So either you or Cobe571 IMEDIATELY have to publish the evidence of such statements, otherwise your obvious opposition in denying the possibility to be published on $ FG_ROOT is actually affected by other things we do not know about.

From this moment I ask, in the kindest way, but at the same time strongly, to be able to publish our G91-R1B in the $ FG_ROOT. So I ask what is the exact procedure and what are the people who will make that decision.
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Thorsten » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:49 pm

I'm truly sorry, but I don't think we can proceed under these circumstances.

This means that your affirmation of doubt about our work is legitimate, but must itself be accompanied by evidence


I'm not a court granting you copyright or not - I'm trying to make a decision as a repository committer whether something is fit to be committed, I've received a mail containing an allegation of stealing, so I would be foolish and irresponsible of me not to follow up on it.

I'm kindly asking you for evidence to refute the accusation - the nature of what is needed has been pointed out to you. This should be trivial for you to produce if what you say is true and it is hard to understand why you don't simply do it.

This is no different from how other contributors are asked in cases of doubt. If you feel offended by not being simply taken on your word, I am sorry about this, but right now it's one statement against the other - and I'm not willing to proceed on that.

(Please be aware that you're in no way persecuted or accused by me - but since you are asking for repository access and I am one of the persons able and willing to review and you want me to actively do something, I'm well in line asking you to adhere to the procedures.)

It's funny that you ask us authors of a work that we are preparing to publish in a repository under the GNU license, to defend ourselves against one who claims to be thieves.


You do realize that your former collaborator can argue just the same way? That in addition to see his work stolen, he finds himself questioned to prove ownership.

If we knew up-front who the innocent party is, it'd always be so much easier, but the thing is, we don't.

If you are consistent with what you said before, you should remove as a precaution (you have affirmed yourself with the concept of responsibility), your magnificent Shuttle from the repository and prove that it is the result of your work.


Here is a link to the publicly accessible repository containing a full commit history of my work linked to a SourceForge account linking me to the FG project as well as storing my email and linking to my webpage providing my clear name and address.

See - we're already done proving. It's as simple as that.
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby abassign » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:40 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:49 pm:I'm truly sorry, but I don't think we can proceed under these circumstances.


I'm glad for your repository, then if you're the one who manages $ FG_ROOT it's obvious that you know what he put in it. The example I gave you is obviously a "Reductio ad absurdum", it did not want to be offensive to you, but only to explain that without certain legal allegations it is not possible to produce legally certain evidence.
We are preparing various images that illustrate the development of the project, but you must also understand that the project is born on computers and not online, so the work phases have followed a classic trend of a project that comes from enthusiasts, who first decide to make the front landing gear (which causes the compactness of the G91 is very binding for the front of the fuselage). Then seen the results are passed to the other parts.
The period is from October 2016 to December 2017, I have seen the blender files that I have listed in the previous post:

I hope this will make it clear that the G91R1B is our work done since October of last year until now. If there are allegations about our work we demand absolutely that is accurate and reliable evidence.

Happy New Year.

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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Thorsten » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:26 pm

FYI - I've also written to Cobe571 and asked him to present evidence for the allegation.

Thank you for your patience - and a happy new year.
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby wkitty42 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:16 pm

abassign wrote in Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:40 pm:We are preparing various images that illustrate the development of the project, but you must also understand that the project is born on computers and not online, so the work phases have followed a classic trend of a project that comes from enthusiasts, who first decide to make the front landing gear (which causes the compactness of the G91 is very binding for the front of the fuselage). Then seen the results are passed to the other parts.
The period is from October 2016 to December 2017, I have seen the blender files that I have listed in the previous post:

are you saying that the blender files were not stored in a (GIT/SVN/CVS) repository at each stage of development to maintain a paper trail of the development progress? /that/ is the information being sought to clarify this situation... if you have such, you have all the proof you need to protect your work from anyone...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby abassign » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:56 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:16 pm:are you saying that the blender files were not stored in a (GIT/SVN/CVS) repository at each stage of development to maintain a paper trail of the development progress? /that/ is the information being sought to clarify this situation... if you have such, you have all the proof you need to protect your work from anyone...


"Who does not want to see does not see ..."
It is not to offend you, but whoever claims to be the author of a work, be it a painting, a statue, a 3D drawing, must make it available so as to prove that it is his. Otherwise I also can claim, like everyone else, that I am the author of a work that you stole me.
It is a fundamental basis of law for the protection of intellectual property.

To evaluate the author of a work there are various ways, for 3D rendering we simply observe how the modeling was performed, with which details etc ... If then one states that his work has been stolen, but does not make available after this statement his work, then that person is making a fraud.

As you can see some drawings that I have inserted, our work has followed an absolutely normal development path, we started from the front landing gear and the various parts were made. Now if the drawings I sent you in this post, the list of objects etc ... does not convince you, I do not know what else can convince you or make you certain of a paternity of a job.
Tell me what else you need to convince yourself and see if we can give it to you!
But at the same time, you have to claim to have the original that described Cobe571 in the post of October 2016, if Cobe571 refuses to give such an original, it means that he refuses to compare his work. Not only that, but to be his legally valid claim, Cobe571 had to make his original available at the same time that he announced his claim to have been robbed. Let's say that tomorrow we make the work available and Cobe571 copies it and says it's yours, you're so idiots to believe that Cobe571 tells the truth?
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Thorsten » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 am

Tell me what else you need to convince yourself and see if we can give it to you!


Pretty much the same thing I asked for:

are you saying that the blender files were not stored in a (GIT/SVN/CVS) repository at each stage of development to maintain a paper trail of the development progress?


If we both have near-identical files, but only I can produce a timestamped repository history showing my commits and you can not, the case is very clear.

So I believe the question is rather meaningful - do you have a repository history of any kind?

If so, we can settle the whole affair within ten minutes...
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby abassign » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:21 am

Thorsten wrote in Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:38 am:If we both have near-identical files, but only I can produce a timestamped repository history showing my commits and you can not, the case is very clear.
So I believe the question is rather meaningful - do you have a repository history of any kind?
If so, we can settle the whole affair within ten minutes...


If you make this statement, then you have not read the time-stamp of the DropBox repository that I've added to you earlier:

Code: Select all
G91.sviluppo/:
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drwxrwxr-x  6 abassign abassign   4096 mag  2  2017 Nasal
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-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 11488542 gen 17  2017 LandingGearFrontal.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    36698 dic  8  2016 Landing Gear moviment 01.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign      301 dic 20  2016 Modifiche Material ac 20161218.txt
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   639804 gen  4  2017 musetto.blend
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G91.sviluppo/CARRELLO_G91/FUSOLIERA_max:
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G91.sviluppo/Dialogs:
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G91.sviluppo/Documentation:
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G91.sviluppo/Documentation/dettagli G91:
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G91.sviluppo/Documentation/dettagli G91/abitacolo:
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G91.sviluppo/Documentation/G91Y_Cervia_flap:
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G91.sviluppo/Documentation/G91Y_Cervia_flap/Alettone:
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G91.sviluppo/Engines:
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G91.sviluppo/Models:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Effects:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Effects/Glass:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/External:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Front_Gear:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Interior:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Lights:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Turbojet:
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G91.sviluppo/Models/Turbojet/Liveries:
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-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 3957 ago 17  2015 G91-Al.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 4072 set 13  2015 G91-Black.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 4074 set 13  2015 G91-Dark-Grey.png

G91.sviluppo/Models/Turbojet/Orpheus MK 803:
totale 161284
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   669011 ott 22  2016 bi-lateral view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign      754 ago  3  2015 Configuration
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    23594 ago 15  2015 Estimated Performance at sea level 01.ods
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   500272 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1576803 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1338164 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.svg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   754790 ott 22  2016 lateral Dx view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   671080 ott 22  2016 lateral Lx view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   272964 ago 10  2015 nominal engine performance at sea level 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   700288 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Compressor blades 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1940959 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Compressor blades 02.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   802641 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Exhaust cone 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   547794 ago 19  2015 Orpheus external view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   512747 ago 19  2015 Orpheus longitudinal external view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   579605 ago 19  2015 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1739513 ott 20  2016 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures-x-2.1-2000x6000.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4324382 ott 20  2016 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures-x-4.203-4000x12000.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 79112746 giu 17  2014 ORPHEUS MARK 803 Lightwaight Turbojet Engine 1960 (Bristol Siddeley).pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1811166 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-01.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1811163 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-01.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1600427 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-02.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1596840 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-02.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1000375 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01 - Assembled.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   203252 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01 - Assembled.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1767744 ott 22  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1767678 ott 22  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1753031 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd.backup
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   424731 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1753477 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1645340 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   288900 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1793237 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1793251 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   708807 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2003923 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1958103 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1729931 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 023.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1698544 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 023.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   346158 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1728784 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1728765 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   519206 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1897960 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1776630 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1592213 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 026.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1592248 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 026.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3492513 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3629271 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3629269 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4528074 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2085371 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2093191 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4159424 mar 23  2017 OrpheusMK803.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4194948 mar 22  2017 OrpheusMK803.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign     5664 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - Paletta-BassaPressione.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   631448 ott 22  2016 section 02.png

G91.sviluppo/Nasal:
totale 40
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  779 giu 16  2016 canopy.nas
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign 4096 mag  2  2017 Engine
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign 4096 mag  2  2017 Lights
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign 4096 mag  2  2017 Reflections
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign 4096 mag  2  2017 Sound

G91.sviluppo/Nasal/Engine:
totale 8
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 767 mar 27  2017 engine_red_emission.nas

G91.sviluppo/Nasal/Lights:
totale 8
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 243 set 17  2015 strobe.nas

G91.sviluppo/Nasal/Reflections:
totale 8
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 385 mar 27  2017 Glass_Camera_Reflections.nas

G91.sviluppo/Nasal/Sound:
totale 8
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 546 set 11  2015 sound_reload.nas

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91:
totale 363592
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    92819 mar 26  2017 A01.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   494104 apr  7  2017 ALI.blend
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign     4096 set  7 23:14 alt
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign     4096 set 10 19:47 Alt2
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   707424 set  4 22:36 Altimeter.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   165920 set  8 16:04 altimetro.svg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  9277484 lug  3 01:22 BLENDER PER ADRIANO.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  9375156 giu 29  2017 BLENDER PER ADRIANO.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3766802 ago 21 23:31 CANOPY_B_21.08.17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3755350 ago 23 00:28 CANOPY_B_22.08.17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 21927672 lug  2 13:16 CARRELLO ANTERIORE SMUSSATO.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  9490107 giu 24  2017 carrello_chiuso_02.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 10635050 giu 29  2017 carrello_chiuso_03.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  8437142 giu 17  2017 carrello_chiuso.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  8375974 giu 14  2017 CARRELLO_Max.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 12572644 giu 28  2017 CARRELLO_principale_ DEF.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 12440068 giu 28  2017 CARRELLO_principale_ DEF.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 10678632 lug  1  2017 CARRELLO PRINC.MAX001.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   525216 ago 29 23:35 cockpit.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   972960 set  4 22:04 cockpit.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   973180 ago 29 16:41 cockpit.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   955104 ago 29 23:25 cockpit_GR1A.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   966960 set 13 00:30 cockpit_GR1B.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   966960 set 13 00:27 cockpit_GR1B.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   573288 set  4 22:05 cockpit_R1B.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1094374 ago  6 18:13 coda_06_08_17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1911720 ago 11 00:36 coda_06_08_17.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1945928 ago  9 16:23 coda_06_08_17.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   281727 mar 26  2017 coda.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  5090128 apr 20  2017 Fiat_G.91.pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   295704 mar 26  2017 fuselage_B0.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   819812 mar 26  2017 fuselage_B0.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   795644 mar 26  2017 fuselage_B0.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   302640 mar 29  2017 fuselage_B0_rev1.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   821756 mar 28  2017 fuselage_B0_rev1.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3638676 mar 26  2017 fuselage_B1.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  7665684 lug 21 15:24 fuselage_B1.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  7534744 lug 21 15:03 fuselage_B1.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   174479 mar 14  2017 fuselage_C0.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   755532 mar 14  2017 fuselage_C0.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   176306 mar 29  2017 fuselage_C0_rev1.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   710920 mar 29  2017 fuselage_C0_rev1.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   730484 mar 28  2017 fuselage_C0_rev1.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 10793987 ago 21 23:30 FUSOLIERA_B_21.08.17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 11662046 set  9 14:44 GRUPPO TETTUCCIO-ABITACOLO.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 13503416 set  9 23:41 GRUPPO TETTUCCIO-ABITACOLO.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 12030840 set  9 17:37 GRUPPO TETTUCCIO-ABITACOLO.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  6963956 mar 16  2017 mistragliatrice.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  6472220 giu 17  2017 modifica carrello.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  6678212 giu 18  2017 modifica carrello_chiuso.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  8421818 giu 16  2017 modifica_ROT_carrello.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 20777594 mar 14  2017 Motore.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 23161436 mar 16  2017 Motore.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 23173276 mar 14  2017 Motore.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   662618 mar 26  2017 musetto.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1337968 mar 26  2017 musetto.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1378428 mar 26  2017 musetto.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   663857 mar 29  2017 musetto_rev.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1319776 mar 29  2017 musetto_rev.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  5114756 lug 21 01:23 revisione portello_armi dx.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  8437442 giu 17  2017 scocca.ac
drwxrwxr-x 5 abassign abassign     4096 dic 30 23:11 SORGENTI DEFINITIVI ADOTTATI
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1855052 mag 20  2017 TEST_ALA.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1855052 mag 20  2017 TEST_ALA.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   845016 apr 17  2017 test flap.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1903932 ago 13 18:42 Tiles_13.08.17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2656900 ago 14 17:32 Tiles_13.08.17.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2673432 ago 13 18:43 Tiles_13.08.17.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1942183 ago 14 17:35 Tiles_14.08.17.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   601592 mar 26  2017 top_2.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  7244086 mar 16  2017 TurboJet01.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 23161436 mar 16  2017 TurboJet01.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    81220 apr  4  2017 wings_A0.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    81560 apr  4  2017 wings_A0_S.ac
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1525612 mag 20  2017 wings.ac

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/alt:
totale 568
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 218333 set  7 00:00 altimeter002.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 349777 set  7 23:14 altimeter_1.ac

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/Alt2:
totale 1004
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  19625 set  9 23:43 altimeter001-1024-Alfa.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  80960 set 10 00:12 altimeter002-1024-Alfa.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 301026 set  9 23:40 altimeter003-1024-Alfa.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 604056 set 10 19:47 altimeter_2.ac

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/SORGENTI DEFINITIVI ADOTTATI:
totale 229292
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign        0 dic 23 14:59 Audit report.txt
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  4163132 mar 18  2017 browing_g91.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 19644012 dic  8 22:41 canopy_def01_tex_canopy.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    33580 dic  1 23:43 canoy_n_d.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    61593 dic  1 23:32 canoy_n_hn.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    62628 dic  1 23:32 canoy_n_ln.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    47309 dic  1 23:32 canoy_n_mn.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    69364 dic  1 23:32 canoy_n_n.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 34841608 dic 11 18:14 CARRELLO ANTERIORE_G91R1B.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 12572644 giu 28  2017 CARRELLO_principale_ G91R1B.blend
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign     4096 dic 11 19:29 cockpit
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 61394552 dic 23 18:58 CODA_G91R1B.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 61394552 dic 23 18:50 CODA_G91R1B.blend1
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign     4096 dic 14 21:29 cubemap
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  1763872 dic 25 19:27 Disegno1.bak
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  1761536 dic 25 19:27 Disegno1.dwg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 10807288 dic 26 00:32 FUSOLIERA CENTRALE E ALI_G91R1B.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 10805944 dic 25 23:06 FUSOLIERA CENTRALE E ALI_G91R1B.blend1
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  1311816 dic 11 17:32 musetto_G91R1B.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  5068140 dic 11 17:59 portelli armi_G91R1B.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   130498 dic 23 14:28 schema airbrake.3ds
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    33580 dic  1 23:43 screw_n_d .jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    61593 dic  1 23:32 screw_n_hn.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    62628 dic  1 23:32 screw_n_ln.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    47309 dic  1 23:32 screw_n_mn.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    69364 dic  1 23:32 screw_n_n.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  7953316 dic 23 14:59 Senza titolo.dxf
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   439854 dic 23 15:03 Senza titolo.wmf
drwxrwxr-x 2 abassign abassign     4096 dic 30 23:12 vari

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/SORGENTI DEFINITIVI ADOTTATI/cockpit:
totale 40100
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 1151768 set 15 16:12 Airspeed.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 1183804 ott 19 23:16 Airspeed_rev.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 3897320 nov  3 01:20 CICLEScollimatore def.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 4767504 ott  4 00:49 cockpit_GR1Bvvv_.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 2920944 dic  8 19:14 handle cockpit.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  779796 ott 12 00:20 interruttore levetta2.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  717372 set 18 23:01 interruttore levetta.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 3833656 set 23 20:48 leva2.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 3878688 set 24 01:03 leva3.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 1916880 set 22 22:09 leva.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  725876 set 23 16:59 leva_canpy.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  716132 set 17 23:22 panel_sx_dx.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 1292840 set 27 23:13 pannli inf separati.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 2602536 ott 22 19:17 PHI-Indicator_opt.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 2667664 ott 22 17:17 PHI-Indicator_sicurezza.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 7909624 dic 11 19:22 portelli armi_G91R1B.blend

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/SORGENTI DEFINITIVI ADOTTATI/cubemap:
totale 80284
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign    68928 dic  8 23:02 0001.png0001.png
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   127482 dic 13 22:27 25434467_10215111764250211_1544138966_o.jpg
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 40905092 dic  9 01:31 cubemap.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 40905092 dic  9 01:30 cubemap.blend1
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   169566 dic 13 23:20 Screenshot 2017-12-13 23.05.41.png

G91.sviluppo/NUOVI FILE G91/SORGENTI DEFINITIVI ADOTTATI/vari:
totale 299692
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 49274184 dic 20 19:10 avanzamento_7.6comp_sottoali.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 49133648 dic 18 01:16 avanzamento_7.6comp_sottoali.blend1
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   654384 ott  1 01:28 bottonlight.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 94278376 dic 26 22:57 FIATG91R1B_project.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign 94278376 dic 26 22:50 FIATG91R1B_project.blend1
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  9309416 dic 19 01:53 ground_shadow.blend
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign  9309416 dic 19 01:52 ground_shadow.blend1
-rw-rw-r-- 1 abassign abassign   588016 nov 13 00:58 montante.blend

G91.sviluppo/Orpheus MK 803:
totale 162732
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   669011 ott 22  2016 bi-lateral view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign      754 ago  3  2015 Configuration
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign    23594 ago 15  2015 Estimated Performance at sea level 01.ods
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   500272 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.jpg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1576803 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1338164 ago 19  2015 Hot and Cold area sections 01.svg
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   754790 ott 22  2016 lateral Dx view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   671080 ott 22  2016 lateral Lx view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   272964 ago 10  2015 nominal engine performance at sea level 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   700288 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Compressor blades 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1940959 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Compressor blades 02.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   802641 ago 19  2015 Orpheus Exhaust cone 01.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   547794 ago 19  2015 Orpheus external view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   512747 ago 19  2015 Orpheus longitudinal external view.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   579605 ago 19  2015 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1739513 ott 20  2016 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures-x-2.1-2000x6000.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4324382 ott 20  2016 Orpheus longitudinal external view with measures-x-4.203-4000x12000.png
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 79112746 giu 17  2014 ORPHEUS MARK 803 Lightwaight Turbojet Engine 1960 (Bristol Siddeley).pdf
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1811166 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-01.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1811163 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-01.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1600427 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-02.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1596840 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01-02.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1000375 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01 - Assembled.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   203252 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01 - Assembled.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1767744 ott 22  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1767678 ott 22  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1753031 ott 20  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.fcstd.backup
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1477016 ott 21  2016 Orpheus MK 803 - 01.obj
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   424731 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1753477 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1645340 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 020.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   288900 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1793237 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1793251 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 021.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   708807 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2003923 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1958103 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 022.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1729931 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 023.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1698544 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 023.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   346158 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1728784 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1728765 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 024.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   519206 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1897960 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1776630 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 025.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1592213 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 026.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  1592248 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 026.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3492513 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3629271 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  3629269 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02A.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4528074 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.dae
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2085371 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  2093191 mar 17  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - 02.fcstd1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4159424 mar 23  2017 OrpheusMK803.blend
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  4194948 mar 22  2017 OrpheusMK803.blend1
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign     5664 mar 23  2017 Orpheus MK 803 - Paletta-BassaPressione.fcstd
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign   631448 ott 22  2016 section 02.png

G91.sviluppo/Systems:
totale 52
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 7138 ago 17  2015 G91-fuel.xml
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 1517 giu 11  2016 G91-hydraulic.xml
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  114 ago  6  2015 G91-keyboard.xml
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 3311 dic 10  2016 G91-views.xml
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  560 ago 24  2015 G91-views.xml.zip
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign  369 ott  2  2016 help.xml

G91.sviluppo/Test multimedia:
totale 27744
-rwxrwxrwx 1 abassign abassign 28404865 dic 17  2016 vokoscreen-2016-12-17_19-29-11.mkv


Here is the project storyboard taken from the chat between me Adriano Bassignana (abassign) and Massimiliano Cuccarano (Mada00) as you will see from the images there is the complete evolution of the project from October 2016 to today. We inserted the storyboard of the images because the conversations took place in Italian.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dviyk2hECx8gdnq0CPU8iX97-fj15Nj8

Here is the project storyboard taken from the chat between me Adriano Bassignana (abassign), Massimiliano Cuccarano (Mada00) and Guido Castaldi (An Italian aviation enthusiast who has always followed the project as a witness and tester, first for the G91R4-GINA Cobe571-Abassign project and then subsequently, from October 2016, for the G91R1B project) as you will see from the images there is the complete evolution of the project from October 2016 to today.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Qott1KdouKMcqb67HYAkjAZ0eihpi1bv

Here I have inserted images of the blender files in the DropBox repository:

https://postimg.org/gallery/1o3redf28/

If you do not feel able to make a judgment, ask another, possibly 3D modeler, to give an opinion on this question.

However, the problem, on a legal level, is that Cobe571 has never shared its files, so it can not claim anything because we have nothing to compare our work with. This is the fundamental point of the question! The only thing that shared Cobe571 is the list of objects and the number of polygons that differs from our work by a factor 10. Obvious you will say (perhaps on the recommendation of Cobe571 ... since you yourself have said that you do not understand rendering) that anyone can re-render an object by increasing the polygons etc ...
I hope that by looking at the storyboard you can understand the evolution of the project and the problems that are gradually discussed. Activities that would not have happened if the work had been done by only copying Cobe571 work.
I am equally sure that also the dimensions of the objects (wingspan, fuselage length, angles ... and also the reference system) are substantially different.

The most absurd thing is that you make your opposition to our request without owning the Cobe571 files, strange, very strange, but do you want to have our original files? For the law, the prosecutor must give the evidence, but the evidence, the Cobe571 files, where are they?
But how can you base an indictment against us if you do not have objective evidence? Have you ever thought that Cobe571 could have written you fake?
If you do not have files Cobe571 because you have asked them to Cobe571 before expressing your doubt? Are you perhaps not impartial and therefore absolutely inadequate to the role you want to have in this story?
Show me Thorsten please, not tomorrow, but immediately! Otherwise I have to think that you agree with Cobe571 to eliminate our project and therefore you are not an impartial judge!
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Thorsten » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:37 am

since you yourself have said that you do not understand rendering


For the record, I've never said anything like this - it should be fairly obvious that I understand rendering.

Which, frankly, is the problem I have with taking your word for anything.

For the law, the prosecutor must give the evidence, but the evidence, the Cobe571 files, where are they?


For the record, I've stated clearly that these are not legal proceedings but that you're asking me to take a legal risk by making a commit in the face of an accusation of stealing, and I tell you what makes that risk acceptable for me.

Otherwise I have to think that you agree with Cobe571 to eliminate our project and therefore you are not an impartial judge!


You may think whatever you prefer since I don't have to do this and I'll remove myself from these proceedings now. I've written a request to the mailing list outlining my problem and asking someone else to take over the review.
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby erik » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:03 pm

My personal view (and having done a little 3d modeling myself) I see there are distinct differences between the two models presented here. So much so that even if it started out as the same model (which I don't say it did) it would have had been completely remodeled to get to this state. Up to the point where you could easily call it your own work.

For me it's now up to the accuser to provide any evidence.

Maybe a silly question but what was the license of the Cobe571 file?
If it was already GPL then there is no problem at all anyhow.

Erik
erik
 
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby EnricoC » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:58 pm

A question and a reflection for everyone ... why the accuser, not involved in this discussion? I know the truth and I reiterate ... He bother to see that G 91 produced by Cuccarano and Bassignana now fly while her, will remain in his hangar...ma does not work so...if you move accused, you must show proof ... then join in the discussion....which not doing ... why?
BR
EnricoC
Callsign : Spectre
www.enricocastaldi.simplesite.com

"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill".
Frank Frederick Borman II
Commander of Apollo 8 .
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Re: FIAT G91-R1B

Postby Hooray » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:13 pm

I do understand why Thorsten is treading carefully - especially in the light of the responses given so far.
However, like Erik, I also suggest to ask for proof from those making these allegations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_dubio_pro_reo
That does not mean that this should convince Thorsten in any way, obviously if he's volunteering to handle the review, it should happen according to his terms.
But personally (and speaking hypothetically), I could imagine being really p*ssed if someone accused me of "stealing" something and not seeing it committed in response to allegations without any evidence backing those up.
Like Erik said, if the original work was GPL, too - everything should be fine still.

Bottom line being, no matter who is right or wrong here (or who is acting as reviewer/committer), I would hope that we find a way to present compelling "evidence", before making a decision here - because either way, the outcome could be hugely frustrating.

If in doubt, the corresponding folks may want to share some more background information (even emails/messages) to make their case - or alternatively, just make a phone call (skype anyone?) to discuss this with each other. Dragging the whole community into this is ridiculous - either way, one party must be missing some information currently, which is why it's probably not easy to tone down these allegations.

For the project, FlightGear as a whole, but also the corresponding aircraft, it would be best to simply get everybody to the table and let them talk to eachother
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
Hooray
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