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Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 am

wlbragg wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:28 am:
Just a quick passage here to remind you that I am the maintainer and the first creator of this helicopter. It would be wise to contact me.

Hum, what exactly would you like me to contact you about, to seek permission to modify GPL code and models that reside in my "personal" stand alone branch? Or perhaps to ask how you want me to implement a system in same?

Would only be out of politeness

That is a two way street!

If you recall, I have worked under your guidance and authority in the past. We collaborated on the fire fighting apparatus tank and system. Or I should say, I built it and got approval from you to forward the work to you so you could merge it with your local and then to FGADDON. We also had discussion about the flex hose and animation and I agreed to do it the way you wanted, not the way I would have preferred to set it up. All so you would adopt it and add it to FGADDON and to keep the peace. That was fine with me and I was more than happy to take guidance from you for those purposes.

After that transpired I started working on the cargo hauling code and never really got it to a point that i would even try to submit it to you for inclusion into FGADDON. During that time I found a bug that needed fixed in the FGADDON repository and I contacted you to make the fix and you never replied or made the fix. So I pushed it to FGADDON myself. As far as I remember, that is the only thing I ever pushed to the AirCrane FGADDON repository without you knowledge or consent. After your failure to continue communication with me and the state my local version was going to remain in as I continued development I decided it best to do it as a separate stand alone branch, version and repository. I planned to leave the FGADDON version alone and continue to respect your wishes when it comes to that version.

Also, if I recall correctly there were some other disagreements on minor issues such as adopting ALS effects and others that steered me away from wanting to continue close collaboration.

I really didn't see a need to contact you "again" as I kind of already moved beyond the hopes of continued collaboration.

I do respect you and your volumes of work. I don't want to be disrespectful. But I do want an AirCrane that is fully functional and that goes beyond anything that has ever been achieved in FlightGear to date. Things such as cargo hauling and construction using the AirCrane. I already produced a really nice firefighting apparatus of which everyone benefited from including your version in FGADDON.

I'm not sure your sudden emergence, tone and statement was very fair to me as you had appeared to have lost interest in adopting any more of my work. But that is OK, I'm just not sure what you want from me. I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions and assume something negative. Maybe your in the same position and needed to hear I am not touching the FGADDON version without consent.

So as it stands now, I plan to continue development of my personal, stand alone version the way I see fit and if there is any part of it you want to adopt for the FGADDON version I would be more than happy to help facilitate it. I am willing to listen to your opinions and suggestions. I don't pretend to know better than you but I do know there are some issues you and I won't agree on and that will more than likely be a show stopper for close collaboration and probably prohibit inclusion into the current FGADDON version as far as your concerned.

So, with all due respect, if there is anything you want to discuss, please feel free, I am listening!


:) no, it wasn't directed against you. Don't worry about it. And your work is fantastic. It has been included in the AirCrane since departure.

I took a little distance from FG for 2 years because other simulation software using my models kept me busy. (X-Plane, Second Life, Arma III etc..) But for the last week I've been taking over the updates. R44, Mil Mi 24, Cirrus Sr 22, Aichi D3A etc.....

I would be happy to receive your work and add it to FGAddon and on in my Hangar.

With kind regards Emmanuel
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby Thorsten » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:38 am

Did you take the time to email me?


Actually Ludovic Brenta did - and reported back

By the way, the email address embaranger@free.fr bounced.

So please contact him with whatever email you use:

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org>
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:17 pm

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am:
wkitty42 wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 am:many of us thought you had abandoned this craft and others since you've been extremely quiet in recent years...


Did you take the time to email me? Contact me to find out? No! You just thought that.........

why should i? i'm not working on your craft nor am i flying any of them :shrug:
then there's also a report that your email address was bouncing :shrug:

i do note that you didn't respond to my point "re: wlbragg has been working on this craft since june 2017 and you've only just now decided to say something?"... that speaks for itself and it isn't very nice...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am:Yes I have put aside this FG Forum and I will not come back very often for a lot of reasons.

that's sad...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am:But that doesn't mean I quit.

you're not seeing this from another's POV... i've been here for ~5 years... you were kind of active and then you weren't... a logical explanation was your attention was diverted elsewhere or you had medical problems... with no updates to your craft coming forth, a logical explanation was that you abandoned them...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am:Just other simulation software took up a lot of my time. FG is not the only one using my models.

ok then :shrug:
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 pm

Thorsten wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:38 am:
By the way, the email address embaranger@free.fr bounced.


Absolutely......A "hacking" problem according to my service provider..... I have changed my address on the forum.

Currently, until the problem is solved, it is possible to contact me at: embaranger@gmail.com

Sorry about that.

P.S. Don't laugh but my service provider offers to solve the problem by using a code sent by email to .............. embaranger@free.fr
And how do I read it lol
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:17 pm:why should i? i'm not working on your craft nor am i flying any of them :shrug:


All right then why come and pollute a discussion that's none of your business. If you don't care about my models, go talk to other people.

This is one of the main reasons why I almost never come here anymore. People who get involved in things that don't concern them in order to push others to fight, to get angry and disgusted by a project that initially had a real open source philosophy. This has been totally lost in recent years. Fortunately there are many other places to talk about FLightGear and improve the project.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:29 pm

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm:
wkitty42 wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:17 pm:why should i? i'm not working on your craft nor am i flying any of them :shrug:


All right then why come and pollute a discussion that's none of your business.

1. who said it is none of my business?
2. i provided wlbragg with a connection to an actual aircrane pilot who has provided a lot of information that was hard/impossible to find...
3. this is an open public forum where anyone can comment on any post as they see fit (within reason of course)...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm:If you don't care about my models, go talk to other people.

i never said that... if you think i did, you need to reread what i wrote again, sir...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm:This is one of the main reasons why I almost never come here anymore. People who get involved in things that don't concern them in order to push others to fight,

i'm certainly NOT trying to "push others to fight"... if you think that's the case, please give your head a shake and look closer at my posts without the jaundiced eye... i'm here to learn and to help and i've done quite a lot of that in the ~5 years i've been here...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm:to get angry and disgusted by a project that initially had a real open source philosophy.

i'm certainly not pushing anyone to get "angry and disgusted"... the project still has a real open source philosophy... that hasn't changed...

helijah wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm:This has been totally lost in recent years. Fortunately there are many other places to talk about FLightGear and improve the project.

the mailing list and this forum are the home and base of the project... participating in them helps the project... participating in other places takes away from the project unless those results make it back into the project... it is your choice where you participate, though... no skin off my or others' backs :shrug:
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:38 pm

no, it wasn't directed against you. Don't worry about it.


Sorry, my misunderstanding and possibly a bit of fight or flight reaction to your comment. I was under the assumption that I was in a good position and standing to work on this aircraft and suddenly felt I wasn't. It appears I am still in a good position and standing and I am grateful. My mistake.

The ultimate goal is to get the work in FGADDON in one form or another. But to confirm, I respect your authority over the original in FGADDON and wouldn't touch it without consultation.

@WoodSTokk after installing the Citation, running through the startup sequence and looking at the code, I think it is close to a custom tailored fit for the AirCrane. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

One of my problems right now is the FDM only models one "rotorgear" ie :"simple engine". All power comes from that definition and will require one of the following choices...

1) Figure out if it is possible to configure two rotorgear in the YASim config. I am working on a test as we speak by trying to double the original rotorgear definition in the config and tie it to a duplicate nasal rotor control block, the original rotorgear was set to the power of only one engine. But that may actually have been compensated for in the reltarget and maxreltorque values in the nasal rotor control block. So than may need to be adjusted as well. It may be most correct to define three rotorgear definitions in YASim, 2 for engines and one for the gearbox that the two engines are tied two.

2) Take the reltarget and maxreltorque values and basically use half the currently defined power ratios as one engine comes online and increasing it to the max current values when the second engine comes online, ie: take the total current reltarget and maxreltorque values and break it down via nasal or other into two individual control systems to simulate two engines and their individual power contributions

The latter I feel is more of a hack.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:26 pm

wlbragg wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:38 pm:@WoodSTokk after installing the Citation, running through the startup sequence and looking at the code, I think it is close to a custom tailored fit for the AirCrane. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.


No problem. I attempt to help where ever i can if i have a idea. You are welcome.

wlbragg wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:38 pm:One of my problems right now is the FDM only models one "rotorgear" ie :"simple engine". All power comes from that definition and will require one of the following choices...

1) Figure out if it is possible to configure two rotorgear in the YASim config. I am working on a test as we speak by trying to double the original rotorgear definition in the config and tie it to a duplicate nasal rotor control block, the original rotorgear was set to the power of only one engine. But that may actually have been compensated for in the reltarget and maxreltorque values in the nasal rotor control block. So than may need to be adjusted as well. It may be most correct to define three rotorgear definitions in YASim, 2 for engines and one for the gearbox that the two engines are tied two.

2) Take the reltarget and maxreltorque values and basically use half the currently defined power ratios as one engine comes online and increasing it to the max current values when the second engine comes online, ie: take the total current reltarget and maxreltorque values and break it down via nasal or other into two individual control systems to simulate two engines and their individual power contributions

The latter I feel is more of a hack.


The turbines in YASim are realy grap. I play since a half year with that for the Citation. It is not possible to reach the right values in all situations and conditions. So i can not help in this domain. Sorry.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:31 pm

It's looking like the rotorgear option is a dead end.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:04 pm

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i think the Aircrane has 2 turbines. As far as i know the gear option is only for piston engines if the propeller is mounted with a gear. I have never seen a gear option for turbines in YAsim.

Edit:
Have now looked at Buckaroo's Guide http://buckarooshangar.com/flightgear/yasimtut_turboprop.html
I don't find anything about helicopters. There are only 'jet', propeller with 'turbine-engine' and propeller with 'piston-engine'.
How do you simulate a helicopter? Or has Buckaroo leaving that out?
Last edited by WoodSTokk on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:21 pm

Correct, but the way it is currently set up as a helicopter you define a main rotor and then a tail rotor. If you have more than one rotor you have to define a rotorgear. The rotorgear is stated in the documentation as a "simple engine. All the helicopters I have looked at are configured this way.
There is no configuration for two engines in any of them. The rotorgear acts as the engine. The AirCrane rotorgear was originally set to 4200 which is the equivalent of 1 engine. At full capacity of water in the tank + fuel and base weight the heli was not producing enough lift. So I changed the 4200 to 8400 which is the equivalent of 2 engines. That satisfied the lift requirements so I assumed I was on the right track.

Only thing is the reltarget and maxreltorque values are uses to limit or control the rotor thrust/lift/rmp? Don't totally understand that portion yet. But those can be configured to get the max lift possible and thus should be able to be cut in half to simulate one or two engines. That is what I am testing now because apparently you cannot define two rotorgear.

It also said in the documentation that for heli that YASim engins would eventually be made availible in place of the rotorgear, that is my understanding of it.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:43 pm

(stupid idea) Define one rotor with one engine and copy the section. So in YAsim (only the mathematical model) you have two rotors on one and the same place, both with max 4200rpm and the propper torques so you should receive the correct values. If both engines are running you receive the correct forces.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:06 pm

:idea:

I get it, yeah, maybe.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:01 pm

Two rotors doesn't help. It's the rotorgear that really needs to be duplicated. The rotor are only the collective portion which isn't what needs to be duplicated. The power to the rotors and the properties that are used to control that power are defined in the rotorgear section. I'm going to look at the YASim source and see if there is any provision to duplicate a rotorgear. If not and I stick with YASim, I think I am stuck with breaking target_rel_rpm values in half and using each half to represent an engine. I already proved to myself it will work like that. And really it is no more of a hack as using that property to represent two engine worth of power in the first place, as far as I am concerned.

JSBSim is truly the answer, but I am just not knowledgeable enough to easily pull that off. Maybe if I look at Alouette-III again now that I have some better documentation for the AirCrane.
I'm not and FDM guy, but the YASim implementation is pretty simple so I think I have the skills needed to modify it to fit better..
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:53 pm

Quick update, I've refactored the startup sequence. You manually start the aircraft using the quadrant. The rotors do not automatically spinup until you advance N1 past grnd idle. I installed the underpower warning lights on the quad and forward panel. You can now control
N1 for both engines. I've installed the rotor brake system and waning light. Next up APP and generator systems.
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