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Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrance anyone?

Postby abassign » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:23 am

In fact, just look at how you use the rotor function in JSBSim to understand that it reports the things needed to fly a helicopter. Obviously JSBSim uses another methodological approach and this may not always be appreciated by those accustomed to other types of approaches.

http://jsbsim.sourceforge.net/JSBSim/classJSBSim_1_1FGRotor.html

As always I have the impression that often affirmations are made without a comparison with reality, or for a form of personal conviction that what we know, even if wrong, is the pure truth. This last point is a problem especially when we want to involve a community of people who want to collaborate in a rich and complex project like FGFS.

Obviously I too have been a victim of the same prejudice concerning the common assertion that JSBSim could not define the correct functioning of a helicopter, despite the fact that it collaborates with the JSBSim project.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrance anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:09 am

RobAndrew wrote in Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:43 pm:Is this all accurate to the real thing?


As stated in a prior post I found the CH-54b Pilot Manual and felt like I hit the jackpot.

Well thanks to wkitty42 and a invaluable contact he provided, I now have in front of me

S-64E Model Training Manual
S-64F Model Training Manual
S-64E Flight Manual
S-64F Flight Manual

and other misc reference material plus consultation from a "real life" AirCrane pilot if needed.

So things will surely change, at least somewhat. My plans are to model this strictly to a Erickson S-64. If there is much variation from the CH-54b then possibly in the end we might end up with a CH-54b variant at some point. But the focus is the S-64E and F.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane any

Postby GinGin » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:29 am

Hey Wayne .
Would it be possible to fats forward Me on of the training and flight manual ? :)
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:32 pm

Image
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:35 pm

GinGin, check your "private messages".
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:47 pm

I just pushed a major revision to the AirCrane repository on GitHub.

First, "autostart" still gets you running without having to do anything.

I have begun implementing systems. I decided to use autopilot and property rules. Systems I will be working on are electrical including generators, fuel, engines including rotor brake system, fuel quadrant including n1.n2 and starter buttons, interior lighting, interior panel including switches and breakers and more I'm sure I am forgetting about.

What was pushed...

I have pushed the very beginning stages of an electrical system and a laid some of the ground work for other systems.

I have tied some of the engine functionality directly to switches VS a system behind a switch which isn't totally realistic, it's just my starting point in organizing what already exists.

Such as, currently the master battery switch must be on to run the engine (not realistic).
The master battery switch must be on to run the exterior lights. I don't think that is realistic as the battery is for emergency power from what I read. But I haven't studied the system in depth yet.

At least one generator must be switch on to charge the battery or it will drain, again this is a direct link to the switch and not realistic without a system behind it.

To start the engine manually (s), you must have battery switch on, at least one fuel quadrant lever on and at least one fuel tank with fuel in it. If any of those condition is false the engine will stop running. In other words, don't turn of the battery switch off or you will kill the engine. It's not realistic, I know, i'm just getting stuff ready and in place for actual systems.

There is full exterior lighting now with switches controlling them on the overhead panel and the battery switch on. Including landing light and spotlight, nav lights including white tail, two red anti collision beacons and a white strobe. It was a little unclear about the lighting. It stated there was to be two anti-collision lights (red) but also mentioned a white strobe. So I used what was the middle red anti-collision beacon for a white strobe instead. There light are ALS when using ALS and regular lighting when in the default renderer.

I'm sure I am forgetting something.

From here on out I will try to make more measured commits. But there were so many changes required to get to where it is now I did it in one big push.

Oh, rotor brakes handle is animated but doesn't do anything yet and isn't a finished model. After reading about it it is a pump and requires several pumps to function properly. Thus the pumping animation already applied.

Edit: Beacons are not final, the existing beacons will be for default renderer only. A different beacon will be created for ALS.

@Thorsten, I am considering expanding the ALS spotlight to other land classes, is that problematic? I made a feeble attempt already but could use some guidance if I am to succeed without wasting a bunch of time figuring it out on my own.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:19 pm

I read 'not realistic' many times in your post :)
The most are about electrical systems. Take a look in the Citation II. I have rebuild the electrical system for maybe a year ago.
The Citation II has a 24 volt system, but the files can be simply changed to other voltages.
And it looks like the Aircrane have the same supplier, 1 battery, 2 generators and 1 external plug.

In short:
The system lookup every supplier for voltage and the position of switches.
It decide how many volt are delivered to every bus and from where it comes from.
The voltage of the busses will be delivered to the circuit breaker.
If a user is switched on, it receive the voltage that is on the corresponding circuit breaker.
In the other way, the script sum up all users and build up the load (ampere) for the supplier.
For a correct load, you need a table with all users and the nominal consumbtion.

Edit:
the Citation II has a load balancer. If the load difference is more than 20amp between the two generators, it start to counteract.
You will find it in the file.

Actually i have only some users in the file. Therefor the amp-meter shows little values but it works.
Last edited by WoodSTokk on Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:30 pm

looks like the Aircrane have the same supplier, 1 battery, 2 generators and 1 external plug.


That is correct, I'll take a look, thanks.

As far as "unrealistic" is concerned, it strictly because the systems are not fully implemented or even created yet. But for sure I am not about reinventing the wheel, so if it there is a chance i can adapt other systems, I will gladly do that.

How are the gens started in the Citation? They require a ext power supply or charged battery?
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:51 pm

wlbragg wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:30 pm:That is correct, I'll take a look, thanks.

As far as "unrealistic" is concerned, it strictly because the systems are not fully implemented or even created yet. But for sure I am not about reinventing the wheel, so if it there is a chance i can adapt other systems, I will gladly do that.

How are the gens started in the Citation? They require a ext power supply or charged battery?


The Citation II uses the generators to start the engines. Because generators are bad as drive motor, every generator is controlled by a GCU (Generator Control Unit).
If you push the 'Starter' button, the GCU deliver power from the battery-bus to the generator for a maximum of 30sec.
The GCU is watching the N1 rpm and the ITT. If N1 spools up and the ITT grows over a certain value (maybe 300 °C) it stops starting and the engine run on its own power.
In this case, the GCU rise a relay that means 'engine running'.
If the values are not seen in 30sec, the GCU stops and the relay remains open.
After 2 miss attempts, you should wait at least 5min! The generators become very hot if they are used as driver motor.

The 'engine running' relay is important for the generator to switch online.
If the relay is open, but the engine is running, the generator comes not online if you switch it on.
Therefor, the switches have a third spring loaded position called 'RESET'.
Push to RESET for 1sec and release it. This give a signal to the GCU to watch N1 and ITT now.
If the values are okay, the relay will be closed and the generator can now switched online.

Edit:
The external power plug goes directly (over a safety relay) into the battery-bus.
Normally you can start from the battery. If the battery is to weak, use external power.
This will also charge the battery.
The 'safety relay' in the external power line goes open if one generator is online.
External power supply are not happy if you push power to it ;)
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 pm

Just a quick passage here to remind you that I am the maintainer and the first creator of this helicopter. It would be wise to contact me. Would only be out of politeness and the ability to live.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby WoodSTokk » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:35 pm

Thanks for the basic work, helijah!
I give only hints to improve the aircraft.
I think it is a good idea if we have a list of all aircrafts in FGAddon with starting author and the actual maintainer.
There are often requests or bug reports in the forum. Many of the bugs and glitches are simple to fix,
but nobody knows who is the author or maintainer of that aircraft, or is it maintained anymore.
I think a open list of authors and maintainers are realy usefull for all people, developers and users.
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 am

helijah wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 pm:Just a quick passage here to remind you that I am the maintainer and the first creator of this helicopter. It would be wise to contact me. Would only be out of politeness and the ability to live.

"the ability to live"?? what in the world??

wlbragg has been working on this craft since june 2017 and you've only just now decided to say something? no disrespect intended...

many of us thought you had abandoned this craft and others since you've been extremely quiet in recent years...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:28 am

Just a quick passage here to remind you that I am the maintainer and the first creator of this helicopter. It would be wise to contact me.

Hum, what exactly would you like me to contact you about, to seek permission to modify GPL code and models that reside in my "personal" stand alone branch? Or perhaps to ask how you want me to implement a system in same?

Would only be out of politeness

That is a two way street!

If you recall, I have worked under your guidance and authority in the past. We collaborated on the fire fighting apparatus tank and system. Or I should say, I built it and got approval from you to forward the work to you so you could merge it with your local and then to FGADDON. We also had discussion about the flex hose and animation and I agreed to do it the way you wanted, not the way I would have preferred to set it up. All so you would adopt it and add it to FGADDON and to keep the peace. That was fine with me and I was more than happy to take guidance from you for those purposes.

After that transpired I started working on the cargo hauling code and never really got it to a point that i would even try to submit it to you for inclusion into FGADDON. During that time I found a bug that needed fixed in the FGADDON repository and I contacted you to make the fix and you never replied or made the fix. So I pushed it to FGADDON myself. As far as I remember, that is the only thing I ever pushed to the AirCrane FGADDON repository without you knowledge or consent. After your failure to continue communication with me and the state my local version was going to remain in as I continued development I decided it best to do it as a separate stand alone branch, version and repository. I planned to leave the FGADDON version alone and continue to respect your wishes when it comes to that version.

Also, if I recall correctly there were some other disagreements on minor issues such as adopting ALS effects and others that steered me away from wanting to continue close collaboration.

I really didn't see a need to contact you "again" as I kind of already moved beyond the hopes of continued collaboration.

I do respect you and your volumes of work. I don't want to be disrespectful. But I do want an AirCrane that is fully functional and that goes beyond anything that has ever been achieved in FlightGear to date. Things such as cargo hauling and construction using the AirCrane. I already produced a really nice firefighting apparatus of which everyone benefited from including your version in FGADDON.

I'm not sure your sudden emergence, tone and statement was very fair to me as you had appeared to have lost interest in adopting any more of my work. But that is OK, I'm just not sure what you want from me. I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions and assume something negative. Maybe your in the same position and needed to hear I am not touching the FGADDON version without consent.

So as it stands now, I plan to continue development of my personal, stand alone version the way I see fit and if there is any part of it you want to adopt for the FGADDON version I would be more than happy to help facilitate it. I am willing to listen to your opinions and suggestions. I don't pretend to know better than you but I do know there are some issues you and I won't agree on and that will more than likely be a show stopper for close collaboration and probably prohibit inclusion into the current FGADDON version as far as your concerned.

So, with all due respect, if there is anything you want to discuss, please feel free, I am listening!
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:23 am

WoodSTokk wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:35 pm:Thanks for the basic work, helijah!
I give only hints to improve the aircraft.
I think it is a good idea if we have a list of all aircrafts in FGAddon with starting author and the actual maintainer.
There are often requests or bug reports in the forum. Many of the bugs and glitches are simple to fix,
but nobody knows who is the author or maintainer of that aircraft, or is it maintained anymore.
I think a open list of authors and maintainers are realy usefull for all people, developers and users.


All my templates contain a Readme file with my email address, the link to my site etc..... Finding the author is therefore not complicated:)
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Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:26 am

wkitty42 wrote in Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 am:
helijah wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 pm:Just a quick passage here to remind you that I am the maintainer and the first creator of this helicopter. It would be wise to contact me. Would only be out of politeness and the ability to live.

"the ability to live"?? what in the world??

wlbragg has been working on this craft since june 2017 and you've only just now decided to say something? no disrespect intended...

many of us thought you had abandoned this craft and others since you've been extremely quiet in recent years...


Did you take the time to email me? Contact me to find out? No! You just thought that.........
Yes I have put aside this FG Forum and I will not come back very often for a lot of reasons. But that doesn't mean I quit. Just other simulation software took up a lot of my time. FG is not the only one using my models.
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