Board index FlightGear Development Aircraft

Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:35 pm

S&J wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:24 pm:A point of order, the yasim Huey you made does now co-exist with the jsbsim version.


Or this ? On FGAddon Trunk I couldn't find anything :)

But I think I misspoke. When I speak of coexisting with great difficulty together, I am speaking in the same file. For example the Diamond Da 40 exists in YASim and in JSBSim at the same time that does not pose any problem. And no one here or elsewhere can say that I came to criticize this JSBSim version. She is respectful of the existing work and tries to do the best on her side. It offers a choice and that is fine. This Da 40 JSBSim model was created with respect for the rules and with respect for the authors.
If tomorrow a UH 1, using my 3D model (like Da 40 does) appears with a JSBSim model in another folder. I have no criticism to make. In no case would I allow myself to do this. Quite the contrary. And it will be the same with AirCrane. This is called the OpenSource respct. What more others here forget a little too quickly.
Some planes (and other) for FlightGear
http://helijah.free.fr
and
http://embaranger.free.fr
User avatar
helijah
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Chartres (France)
Callsign: helijah
IRC name: helijah
Version: GIT
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:51 pm

The Huey's yasim and jsbsim flight models exist in the same folder because the jsbsim flight model is an 'add on' to your work, by an author that wishes his work to be CC licenced.

Now if someone came along and did a jsbsim flight model in GPL that was better than the existing yasim flight model why would you the 3d modeler insist that he make his work dual function ?
Why would you make his task harder, make him jump through multiple hoops to save a yasim flight model that is basically redundant ?
Where is the respect for this jsbsim author, who is prepared to spend time making the overall plane experience better ?
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:00 pm

helijah wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:30 pm:Certainly it will not be instantaneous because I have to continue to maintain more than 300 models and I have others in progress. But it will be done.


That's called a 'bottleneck' and it's normally seen as a limiting factor to progress.

It can't be practical to maintain more than 300 aircraft, can it ?

You might be a prolific 3d modeler but surely there's a limit to how many aircraft a single person has ownership of ?
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:08 pm

S&J wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:00 pm:You might be a prolific 3d modeler but surely there's a limit to how many aircraft a single person has ownership of ?


And since when do humans have limits ? lol There are still a lot of unique, rare, or strange models that I want to create :) But always continuing to maintain and evolve the existing ones. It is enough to see how many, already, are marked "2021". Why would I stop there? :)
Some planes (and other) for FlightGear
http://helijah.free.fr
and
http://embaranger.free.fr
User avatar
helijah
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Chartres (France)
Callsign: helijah
IRC name: helijah
Version: GIT
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:29 pm

yeh but you talk about respect, and so I'm just trying to understand why anyone in an open source community would deliberately create a bottleneck that limits development.
Especially as you say you want to see them evolve.

I'm struggling to put this square peg in this round hole.

I mean you do the 3d models and so start the project off, do you then hand the project off to someone else that can put the necessary hours in to evolve it. Do you believe you can evolve over 300 aircraft ?

Am I missing something ?
Where's the community in this ?

I still can't understand the respect comment you made.
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:36 pm

helijah wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:08 pm:And since when do humans have limits ?


Well at over 300 aircraft and only 365 days in the year and say you go on holiday 2 weeks a year, and have Christmas with the family and that you have to work for a living, so after eating tea you have from 6;30pm to 9:30pm working on Flightgear every evening, so that's 3 hours.

On average 3 hours a plane a year. Can you evolve a plane with so little time a year spent on it ?

So I'd say time is definitely a limiting factor for you,
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby portreekid » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:01 pm

S&J wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:29 pm:I still can't understand the respect comment you made.

Respect as with most communication lies at the receiver to interpret. And regarding bottlenecks. FG development is one single bottleneck. No matter which corner you look there are people blocked. Groundnet developers blocked by core AI broken or aircraft devs blocked by core changes. Core devs blocked by not all Aircraft having a developer. Helija at least maintains the craft. There are several ones that probably haven’t even got the tags section.
portreekid
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: Leipzig
Callsign: PORTREE
Version: 2020.2.1
OS: Windows 10

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:38 pm

S&J wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:29 pm:I mean you do the 3d models and so start the project off, do you then hand the project off to someone else that can put the necessary hours in to evolve it. Do you believe you can evolve over 300 aircraft ?


Where did you read this? Who told you that ? Since when I only do 3D models. Take the time to visit my hangar, download the planes present and test them. 90% of the models are designed by me. 3D models, animation, txtures, FDM etc ..... Where did you read this? Who told you that ? Since when I only do 3D models. Take the time to visit my hangar, download the planes present and test them. 90% of the models are designed by me. 3D models, animation, textures, FDM etc ..... and I take the time to maintain them, make them evolve and update them for the evolutions of FG. Currently Compositor and ALS for example. :)

Regards Emmanuel
Some planes (and other) for FlightGear
http://helijah.free.fr
and
http://embaranger.free.fr
User avatar
helijah
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Chartres (France)
Callsign: helijah
IRC name: helijah
Version: GIT
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:49 pm

S&J wrote in Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:36 pm:Well at over 300 aircraft and only 365 days in the year and say you go on holiday 2 weeks a year, and have Christmas with the family and that you have to work for a living, so after eating tea you have from 6;30pm to 9:30pm working on Flightgear every evening, so that's 3 hours.


Here are again remarks launched without knowing and without asking before.

1 - I started in 2006, inform yourself before writing. 2006 -> 2021, So 15 years to create around 300 models. An average of 20 models per year therefore. Which is not huge.

2 - Vacation? What's this ? To have a vacation you need work. And in France, work is not so easy to find when you are over 50.

3 - I sleep an average of 4 to 5 hours per night. The rest of the time I model, I work on flight models etc ...

In 15 years, that leaves plenty of time to do everything. Knowing that still on average it takes me about 5 full days to create a usable, organized model with a basic but correct flight model and sufficient but upgradeable instruments.
And of course a lot of speakers bring their contribution to the building. The fabulous textures of Gary BROWN (aka N-SCOT). the Salmaliet panels (the Yak 18T, the Socata ST 10), the help of real pilots for the flight models etc .... :)

Regards Emmanuel
Some planes (and other) for FlightGear
http://helijah.free.fr
and
http://embaranger.free.fr
User avatar
helijah
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Chartres (France)
Callsign: helijah
IRC name: helijah
Version: GIT
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:53 am

Is there some place I could go or somewhere I could ask questions other than here to gain knowledge and ask these questions before hand ?

I thought this forum was the place.

Now I've looked at the Huey and the level of quality isn't eye shattering. There are multiple 3d mistakes, missing polys. The cockpit is rudimentary and the gauges poor. And it's yasim flight model, well let's not go there.

So I'm left wondering why, if you say you want to evolve the planes you don't concentrate your time on just a few and raise their quality, accuracy ?

Anyway that's me done with this conversation, it's clearly going no where and you've refused to answer my query on respect, so I'll just have to make my own opinion.
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby portreekid » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:56 am

S&J wrote in Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:53 am:So I'm left wondering why, if you say you want to evolve the planes you don't concentrate your time on just a few and raise their quality, accuracy ?.


I think you have a general misconception. We all here are doing it for "fun". Some concentrate on 3D and have fun on nice planes that fly like a magic carpet. Some concentrate on the FDM and the model is crap. Some go bonkers and build a Shuttle ;-) That creates the perfect storm for problems. In 99% of all cases it won't get fixed if you don't fix it. The 1% are things other people just happen to be working on.
portreekid
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: Leipzig
Callsign: PORTREE
Version: 2020.2.1
OS: Windows 10

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby S&J » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:43 am

Ok one more post.

I understand all that portree, what I can't fathom is that if you're spending 5 days on a plane and the next person comes along and spends 3 months on the flight model or a couple of weeks on the textures or a few months on the cockpit gauges. Where's the respect from Emanuel for their work, for their time spent. What we have is a one way street of respect with a bottleneck at the end of it.

Once you've gifted your work on a vehicle to a community, should you retain the power to veto others work on the vehicle ? how is that open and free ?
Doing so, as in this example will just create two or even more versions of the same vehicle.

I don't have a horse in this race, but it doesn't seem correct to me
S&J
 
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:31 pm

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby helijah » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:18 pm

as I said before instead of basing yourself on a single model and generalizing. Take the time to test the other models. Yak 18 T, Douglas Dc 3, Lancair 235, Ryan Navion, Robin Dr 400, ... etc ...
And Why two different versions, this is mandatory because the two classic flight models cannot coexist in the same folder. And it is normal to be able to offer the choice to the users. For example the Diamond Da 40 which exists in YASim and JSBSim.
Some planes (and other) for FlightGear
http://helijah.free.fr
and
http://embaranger.free.fr
User avatar
helijah
 
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Chartres (France)
Callsign: helijah
IRC name: helijah
Version: GIT
OS: GNU/Linux

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby wlbragg » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:19 pm

Are there two S-64 now?

Yes, fgaddon would be considered the FG supported version because it is fgaddon. My personal development repository will contain a variation. If I or someone else gets around to making a JSBSim FDM then there might be two in fgaddon.
I'm a bit concerned about that when and if the time comes because historically I have seen the JSBSim version eliminate the YASim version. It happened to me with the Cub. Once we got the JSBSim version dialed in, the consensus was to eliminate the YASim version out of fgaddon. I was a bit more green at the time and listened to others who I felt new best and it was removed. I was reluctant because I was very sensitive to the original authors. I don't think there was ever any blow back, so I guess it was OK.

What are the differences?

The irreconcilable differences are multiple derived effects, lighting positions, strengths and techniques, compatible modeling tools and to some extent organizational issues.

What's the plans?

Just as we have stated, Helijah will continue to use what he can periodically for the fgaddon version. The fgaddon version will lag behind my development version (would no mater whether we agree to everything or not). My development version will likely diverge in organization and the above mentioned disciplines.

Is it just the Compositor changes and the searchlight? I take the "stock" one won't get it.

No, actually that should get into the fgaddon version, if not already, in one form or another. Helijah is updating all his aircraft to use compositor lighting.

So if on Next it has to be wlbraggs?

No, you only need my development version if you want the most current stuff and the aforementioned differences.

Again, I emphasize, I really want to squash any negative discussion about right, wrong or best practices as I don't see there really is that concept in a completely open source project that can be so subjective. There is what is acceptable to the core and thus can be contributed to fgaddon, in this context I suppose both versions would be. Beyond that, I feel that is what personal repositories and hangers are for. You can disagree and still do your own thing. I think this is a strength of FlightGear not a weakness.
Kansas(2-27-15)/Ohio/Midwest scenery development.
KEQA (2-27-15), 3AU, KRCP Airport Layout
Intel i5 3570K AMDRX480
wlbragg
 
Posts: 6041
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:31 pm
Location: Kansas (Tornado Alley), USA
Callsign: WC2020
Version: next
OS: Win10/Linux/AMDRX480

Re: Erickson S-64 Aircrane anyone?

Postby portreekid » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:31 pm

All fine for me, I understand now.
portreekid
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: Leipzig
Callsign: PORTREE
Version: 2020.2.1
OS: Windows 10

PreviousNext

Return to Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: RS001, snoopie and 3 guests