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G91-R: Combining incompatible licences in a single aircraft.

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G91-R: Combining incompatible licences in a single aircraft.

Postby abassign » Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm

G91R4 the project is going ahead :) !

Image

Image

Image


The 3D model continues to be developed by cobe571, and I continue with the FDM and lighting effects. Cobe571 currently is working on the landing gear and I hope soon to be able to start making the opening/closing mechanism. The ejection seat is ready and the interior of the cabin. Missing textures that are in development.
The license of the 3D model developed by Cobe571 is Creative Commons CC-BY-NC-ND 3.0
The license of FDM, NASAL, XML is GPL

This is an interesting experiment in "mixed-license" for FGFS. The reason for this approach is to prevent the 3D designs, developed for FGFS projects, they can become a part of commercial projects. Too many excellent 3D designers are not interested in developing quality projects for FGFS precisely because they believe that the GPL is used fraudulently by commercial companies in the field of flight simulators.

It would be interesting to have a repository for FGFS "Not Free", similar to what exists in Debian. In this repository can therefore be inserted projects with mixed license.

I think the quality has a cost and this cost must be paid somehow. Cobe571 is spending hundreds of hours on the project of G91, for him the model is a kind of "calling card" that can help him to find clients for his work as a 3D modeler. I hope that the example of this project could lead to other good 3D modelers themselves to divesting their works under CC-BY-NC-ND 3.0 license.
Last edited by abassign on Mon May 30, 2016 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby punkepanda » Sat May 28, 2016 1:16 am

abassign wrote in Fri May 27, 2016 11:23 pm:It would be interesting to have a repository for FGFS "Not Free",

Excellent approach. I've been thinking about that too and I think it will be more much more good quality designs in FG if it was not only "free" stuff.

I would pay for good add-on' s ;)

I cant wait to see the cockpit of this. The external looks really nice so far!
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 5:46 am

I think the quality has a cost and this cost must be paid somehow.


I think the fallacy of this is that once coders decide that their hundreds of hours of quality work also have a cost and should be paid somehow, there is no project left for which you can develop any 3d models.

It's a thing well known as Tragedy of the Commons - if you have a common good (here a GPL project) and you can access it according to your best self-interest (here by making use of the permissive licensing others do while choosing a more restrictive license yourself), then this works indeed if you're the only done doing it, but it fails as soon as everyone does it because it destroys the common good in the long run.

For that reason, I think you'll have a hard time to get support for any such idea from FG - or as Torsten once put it: If it's not GPL, we're not interested, no matter how good it may be.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 6:12 am

Too many excellent 3D designers are not interested in developing quality projects for FGFS precisely because they believe that the GPL is used fraudulently by commercial companies in the field of flight simulators.


I'm actually not aware of a single case in which this actually happened. Do you know one?
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 8:31 am

I've seen it done with my work from Targetware... but if you're not a 3d or 2d artists you'd probably not be that interested in the reuse of your work in commercial projects.

There is quite a difference between taking a code writen in one language and then having to rework it into another and just simply taking a 3d model in .ac format and exporting it via your modeling package into your preffered format or doing the same with 2d texture... One requires hundreds of hours of work the other a simply press of the export button.

Anyway there are always alternative places to distribute your plane from. :)

Simon
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 8:56 am

There is quite a difference between taking a code writen in one language and then having to rework it into another


Would be if that'd be what you'd need to do. But that's not how code is actually used in practice. Linking a library is just a compiler option away - and even language doesn't really matter, I've been linking FORTRAN libs with C code for the better part of a decade without problems.

Anyway there are always alternative places to distribute your plane from.


Make that: There are other places that will distribute your plane no matter what you think about it.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby erik » Sat May 28, 2016 9:13 am

You know you can't take a GPL model from helijah and just release it under a different license right?
And if it's your own model then there's no problem at all, we already have a GPL version.

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 10:13 am

erik wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 9:13 am:You know you can't take a GPL model from helijah and just release it under a different license right?
And if it's your own model then there's no problem at all, we already have a GPL version.

Erik


Helijah takes about a weekend (if that) to produce his exterior 3d model.. it's just a placeholder, a means by which some rights of authorship is created.

If the new 3d modeler uses helijah's exterior model and improves it, then this mesh must remain under GPL.... but when this new 3d modeler creates a new interior 3d mesh for the plane this can be under any licence he wishes, same with the 2d textures.

You end up with different licences protecting the writes of different authors, who put considerably different amounts of time and effort into the plane and view the value of their work differently.

This is where the core developers who don't understand 3d or 2d modelers have made a complete cock up of the situation to suit their own agenda.
You don't licence the plane as a whole, but instead licence the individuals parts that make it up, that way you can run a plane with both a GPL and CC texture side by side without any arguments....every authors opinions being taken into account and not just the author of a simplistic 3d exterior model that he knocked up over a rainy weekend.

Simon
Last edited by Bomber on Sat May 28, 2016 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 10:27 am

Thorsten wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 8:56 am:
Make that: There are other places that will distribute your plane no matter what you think about it.


All quite legally and for no cost to the community of flightgear....
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby erik » Sat May 28, 2016 11:01 am

Bomber wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 10:13 am:You don't licence the plane as a whole, but instead licence the individuals parts that make it up, that way you can run a plane with both a GPL and CC texture side by side without any arguments....every authors opinions being taken into account and not just the author of a simplistic 3d exterior model that he knocked up over a rainy weekend.

Incorrect. The current version of the FIAT G91 in GFAddon is 100% GPL. Once you start modifying anything you agree to comply with the terms of the GPL. Hence you can not add stricter licensed material and release it. That is what makes the GPL different from any other license.

If you do not agree with that you will have to start from scratch.

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 11:14 am

Modifying yes.....but not creating new material for it, such as a new skin texture or 3d model... there is a difference.

As long as you continue to make the GPL content GPL, you break no GPL rules by creating new NON-GPL content and attaching it to the plane.

The current version in FGAddon is 100% GPL because of the attitude of those controlling the content, and as such no NON-GPL can be added. That is a rule that exists here and expecting to get your content added to the plane distributed within FGAddon, you have to play by...

However if you so wish to have your work under a different licence, you can take the original GPL plane and add to it and distribute it under a mixed licence of it's parts.
You're breaking no legal copyright rules just putting a few noses around here out of joint. ;)

So a win win in my opinion.

Simon
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Sat May 28, 2016 12:13 pm

Make that: There are other places that will distribute your plane no matter what you think about it.


All quite legally and for no cost to the community of flightgear....


As FlightProSim etc. has amply demonstrated, legal is not the same as moral or desirable. And as more than a few copyright violations have demonstrated by now, the 'quite legally' is not necessarily true for FGMembers.

Modifying yes.....but not creating new material for it, such as a new skin texture or 3d model... there is a difference. As long as you continue to make the GPL content GPL, you break no GPL rules by creating new NON-GPL content and attaching it to the plane.


It depends on the degree of dependency between components whether this does force you into GPL or not - there is no 'one size fits all answer' - you may in fact be breaking the GPL license by doing so.

Speaking of 'quite legally' again...
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby erik » Sat May 28, 2016 12:34 pm

Bomber wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 11:14 am:Modifying yes.....but not creating new material for it, such as a new skin texture or 3d model... there is a difference.

If there is livery support then you can indeed release a new livery using a different license.
The 3d model is the main part of the GPL'd project so you can not replace it with something that uses a different license without breaking the GPL.

That would be like replacing one single file from the Linux kernel with a pure commrcial licensed one and releasing the new kernel as a commercial project. It will not stand in court.


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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby bugman » Sat May 28, 2016 1:46 pm

I would suggest considering creating a 3rd party hangar for this aircraft, and then listing it on the wiki.

For the licencing, you need to be careful. You cannot legally take a GPL licensed aircraft, strip out one component from the whole (e.g. the 3D model), and replace it with a differently licensed component. Well, you can, but you are legally blocked from distributing the combined product. You also cannot create a "whole" - a complete aircraft - with incompatible licences. Anyway, if you completely redo the lot and there are no original GPL parts in the final craft, or were used to create it, that can legally be distributed.

Regards,
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Sat May 28, 2016 1:49 pm

erik wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 12:34 pm:
The 3d model is the main part of the GPL'd project so you can not replace it with something that uses a different license without breaking the GPL.



OK I'll answer your specific example.

But first I and I suspect the courts would also disagree that a placeholder 3d exterior model is the main part of a planes project..

It can clearly be shown that an interior models is far more complex requiring more time in both 3d and animation file..( that's why there are planes without interiors)

And a quality flight model also takes longer and requires more knowledge to produce than an exterior 3d model.

A plane should not have an overarching licence as the many components that make it up are produced by different people using different tools and skills.

If however a 3d modeller wishing to improve a planes exterior but wishes his work to be protected by a non-GPL licence... He can replace the 3d mesh with a new more accurate version alongside the original GPL work and call up the new mesh in the animation file. Distributing both.

There's nothing commercial in it, just protection of his work from being used within another commercial product.

This benefits FlightGear as it brings in more skilled people.


erik wrote in Sat May 28, 2016 12:34 pm:That would be like replacing one single file from the Linux kernel with a pure commrcial licensed one and releasing the new kernel as a commercial project. It will not stand in court.
Erik


No its not....
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