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Bell 412

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:47 am

And one more for good measure ;)

Image

v.s.

Image

Regards,
Edward

Edit: Again the permalink: https://web.archive.org/web/20180226114 ... 58#p328558
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:04 pm

And just in case that was not clear enough:

Image

Regards,
Edward
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm

So let me try to summarize:

1) Everybody in this forum is polite and respectful except Valery and me.
2) Valery is a thief and there is no need to be polite to a thief.
3) Flightgear is art and therefore there is no need to ask the original producers of what you are copying for permission.
4) Once somebody has copied something other companies produced into her own models, it is absolutely forbidden to copy those models without asking permission.

I am not ok with any of those points but that is only my personal opinion and I will leave it here.
Anybody can read the posts and make up their own mind :D

For me personally this topic was very useful because I learned a lot how this forum works and what type of communication is considered acceptable here.
I feel that for some of you this topic is not so pleasant, so sorry for bothering you.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:55 pm

Hi @hans05,

We can debate any infinite number of different issues here, but for me this is the most important one out of all of this:

5) The overwhelming evidence is that vslash's 412 includes a tremendous amount of copied material from the Cerasim Bell 412. Even in the most recent "sanitized" version Edward has found seemingly endless matches between textures (and 3d meshes as far as we can judge the underlying mesh structure.)

We have been developing the FlightGear software and content since late 1996/early 1997 ... that is more than 20 years now. For better or worse we can't steal commercial content for our simulator. We just can't. If that means we always are looking up to other products with professionally purchased artwork, that's just how it has to be. In some cases our free project and volunteer developers leap-frog the other sims (like our atmosphere, or our terrain when it was originally developed, or the crazy cool ornothopter with something like 10Mb of aero data feeding the model.) They might pass us back up again later, but we run the race by actually running the race legitimately. This is how it must be done.

Calling someone out on cheating is messy and unpleasant. In my experiences, they double down on their claims of originality and get very angry and make endless counter accusations in return. We all have a level of personal pride in our efforts, and accusations of cheating hit people hard. This is why I tried to remain quiet for as long as I could. I didn't say anything publicly for over a year and a half! I tried to use back channels to steer this model away from the forum. I didn't want to embarrass vlsash or have to call him out publicly. I don't know if that was the polite course of action, or if it would have been fairer to call him out right away and deal with this all a year and a half ago? I opted for patience ... that seemed like the best route at the time to me. I knew the evidence, and I knew how this would play out. Recently I asked Valery privately not to keep posting about his 412 on our forum, but he chose to ignore that request. As a consequence, I felt it necessary to make public the evidence that I was aware of. And yes, the way this played out is predictably messy and unpleasant.

@hans I appreciate that you are loyally supporting your friend. That is a great quality in a person. I don't think anyone here has any issue with you or your postings. Anyone is free to explain their perspective if they can do it in a civil way without personal attacks or threats, and as far as I can see you have made every effort to write your posts and explain your perspective in a civil way. I truly appreciate this.

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wlbragg » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:57 pm

If that is what you got out of this exercise you unfortunately missed a whole bunch of communication. Maybe it is the language barrier!
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:40 pm

bugman wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:26 am:This includes silencing of the public git repository (or rather no longer pushing commits to the public repositories) to hide development history.


I'll take that back. The source SVN repository is still live:

Code: Select all
svn co http://svn.code.sf.net/p/bell-412/code/ bell-412


However the web interface for this repository has been deleted: https://sourceforge.net/p/bell-412/code. Interestingly all the copyright statements were added 5 days ago:

Code: Select all
r54 | vslash | 2018-02-21 22:31:14 +0100 (Wed, 21 Feb 2018) | 1 line
Changed paths:
   D /1.README_ABOUT_HOWTO
   M /Bell-412-common.xml
   M /Bell-412-set.xml
   M /Bell-412-yasim.xml
   M /CHANGELOG
   A /COPYRIGHTS_3RD_PARTY
   M /Models/2.Doors Inside.png
   M /Models/412.ac
   D /Models/5.Cockpit-1.png
   M /Models/5.CockpitSeats.png
   M /Models/6.Cabin FrontMiddle.png
   M /Models/6.Cabin-floor.png
   M /Models/6.Cabin-roof.png
   M /Models/Bell-412.xml
   A /Models/Pilots/decoration_a.png
   A /Models/Pilots/face_a.png
   A /Models/Pilots/passenger1.ac
   A /Models/Pilots/passenger1.xml
   A /Models/Pilots/passenger2.ac
   A /Models/Pilots/passenger2.xml
   A /Models/Pilots/passengers.xml
   A /Models/Weapons
   A /Models/Weapons/9.WeaponsMount.png
   A /Models/Weapons/M2_Defuse.tga
   A /Models/Weapons/Mount_Defuse.tga
   A /Models/Weapons/weapons.ac
   A /Models/Weapons/weapons.xml
   A /Nasal/dynamic_view.nas
   A /README
   A /gui/dialogs/cockpit-view.xml

v0.9.1
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r53 | vslash | 2018-02-11 10:16:38 +0100 (Sun, 11 Feb 2018) | 1 line
Changed paths:
   M /1.README_ABOUT_HOWTO
   M /Bell-412-common.xml
   M /Bell-412-set.xml
   M /Bell-412-yasim.xml
   M /CHANGELOG
   M /Dialogs/Bell-412-checklists.xml
   M /Dialogs/Bell-412-help.xml
   M /Docs/Flightgear Bell-412 Manual.pdf
   A /Effects/instruments-glass.eff
   A /Models/3.Glasses Front Interior Dirty.png
   M /Models/412.ac
   M /Models/6.Cabin-roof.png
   M /Models/Bell-412.xml
   A /Models/Controls/5.Cockpit-controls-collcyc.png
   D /Models/Controls/6.Framework-5.png
   M /Models/Controls/collectiv-cop.ac
   M /Models/Controls/collectiv.ac
   M /Models/Controls/cyclic-cop.ac
   M /Models/Controls/cyclic.ac
   A /Models/Immat/immat-white.png
   M /Models/Immat/immat.xml
   A /Models/Immat/immat_cockpit.ac
   A /Models/Immat/immat_cockpit.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/5.Cockpit Panel Main Board.png
   M /Models/Instruments/5.Cockpit Panel Pedestal-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/5.Cockpit Panel Pedestal.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Cautions/cautions.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Cautions/cautions.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Cautions/instruments-3-lt.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/afcs.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/afcs.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/ap_al300.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/ap_al300.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/ap_ms700.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/ap_ms700.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/clock.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/clock.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/controls.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/controls.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/generic_nav.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Controls/immat-white.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls-nx.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls-x.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/r_adf1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/r_com1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/r_com2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/r_nav1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/r_nav2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Glasses/instruments_glasses.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Glasses/instruments_glasses.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ahrs_actuator.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ahrs_actuator1.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ahrs_actuator2.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ahrs_actuators.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_ball.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_ball_c.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_ball_p.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_g.xml
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/aist.ac
   A /Models/Instruments/Indicators/aist.xml
   D /Models/Instruments/Indicators/aist_ball.ac
   D /Models/Instruments/Indicators/aist_ball.xml
   D /Models/Instruments/Indicators/instruments-1.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/instruments-2-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/instruments-2.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/instruments-needles.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/vsi_g.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-1-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-1-lights2.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-1.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-2.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-3-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments-3.png
   A /Models/Instruments/instruments-controls.png
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments.xml
   M /Models/Pedestal/pedestal.ac
   M /Models/Pedestal/pedestal.png
   M /Nasal/afcs.nas
   M /Nasal/bell412.nas
   M /Nasal/cautions.nas
   A /Nasal/instrumentation.nas
   M /Splash/splash-cop.png
   M /Splash/splash.png
   M /Systems/Bell-412-instrumentation.xml
   M /Systems/Bell-412-keyboard.xml
   M /Systems/filter_afcs.xml
   A /Systems/filter_cautions.xml
   M /Systems/filter_electrical.xml
   M /Systems/filter_instruments.xml

v0.9
------------------------------------------------------------------------
r52 | vslash | 2018-01-02 16:44:13 +0100 (Tue, 02 Jan 2018) | 1 line
Changed paths:
   M /Bell-412-common.xml
   M /Bell-412-cop-set.xml
   M /Bell-412-set.xml
   M /Bell-412-yasim.xml
   M /CHANGELOG
   M /Dialogs/Bell-412-checklists.xml
   M /Dialogs/Bell-412-help.xml
   M /Docs/Flightgear Bell-412 Manual.pdf
   M /DualControl/bell412-dual-control.nas
   M /DualControl/pilot-dual-control.nas
   M /Huds/Instruments/controls.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/heading-compass.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/heli-controls.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/hover-tapes.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/ladder-small.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/ladder.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/turn-bank-indicator-classic.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/turn-bank-indicator.xml
   M /Huds/Instruments/wind-label.xml
   M /Models/1.Fuselage-misc.png
   M /Models/1.FuselageHD.png
   M /Models/412.ac
   A /Models/412_parts.ac
   A /Models/Bell-412-parts.xml
   M /Models/Bell-412.xml
   M /Models/Controls/cyclic.ac
   M /Models/Controls/cyclic.xml
   M /Models/Fuselage-normalmap.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/controls.ac
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/controls.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls-lights.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Controls/instruments-controls.png
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/AmpMeter1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/AmpMeter2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_ball_c.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_ball_p.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/ai_g.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/airspeed_g.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_fuelpsi1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_fuelpsi2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_hydr1_t.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_hydr2_t.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_itt1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_itt2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_oil1_p.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_oil1_t.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_oil2_p.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_oil2_t.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_rpm1.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/eng_rpm2.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/hsi_disc_c.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/hsi_disc_p.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/tacho_g.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/Indicators/torque_mast_g.xml
   M /Models/Instruments/instruments.ac
   M /Models/Liveries/1.FuselageHD.png
   M /Models/Liveries/1.FuselageQueueHD.png
   M /Models/Liveries/Army.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/CanadianCG-Fuselage.png
   M /Models/Liveries/CanadianCG-Tail.png
   M /Models/Liveries/CanadianCoastGuard.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/Default.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/IslandTour-1.Fuselage.png
   M /Models/Liveries/IslandTour-1.FuselageQueue.png
   M /Models/Liveries/IslandTour.xml
   A /Models/Liveries/NOTARZT.xml
   A /Models/Liveries/NSW-Fuselage.png
   A /Models/Liveries/NSW-Tail.png
   A /Models/Liveries/NSW.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/NYPD.xml
   A /Models/Liveries/Notarzt-Fuselage.png
   A /Models/Liveries/Notarzt-Tail.png
   M /Models/Liveries/Redblack.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/Roger.xml
   M /Models/Liveries/SanAndreas-1.Fuselage-SA.png
   M /Models/Liveries/SanAndreas-1.FuselageQueue-SA.png
   M /Models/Liveries/SanAndreas-Blades.png
   M /Models/Liveries/SanAndreas.xml
   M /Nasal/afcs.nas
   M /Nasal/bell412.nas
   M /Nasal/electrical.nas
   D /Nasal/electrical.nas.txt
   M /Sounds/alarm.wav
   A /Splash/splash-0.7.png
   M /Splash/splash.png
   M /Systems/Bell-412-instrumentation.xml
   M /Systems/Bell-412-keyboard.xml
   M /Systems/filter_afcs.xml
   M /Systems/filter_electrical.xml
   M /Systems/filter_instruments.xml

v0.8
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Regards,
Edward
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:13 pm

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:40 am:@wlbragg:

Please note that I put this @somebody to the top of all my posts. What I write is then generally directed to that person. I thought this is generally understood this way. If not, please take it this way.

nothing wrong with that but it is still an open post that anyone can comment on... it is no different than standing in a lobby and joining in on someone else's conversation they are having beside you... if more privacy is needed, there's PM, email and other private ways to communicate ;)

plus, no one can tell the writer's emotion or attitude when reading plain text... there's no body language to read and you certainly cannot hear them laughing or screaming or just talking in a dull monotone... most of the time when folks misunderstand something, they're reading it in their own voice how they would imagine it was said if they said it... after a bad day, one reads more anger and frustration in what they read... that's called projecting and is quite bad... you'll probably take some of what i've written here as offensive but that's a personal problem you have to work out... just read the words... don't translate or apply emotion to them... there is none being given from here ;)
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:31 pm

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:So let me try to summarize:

1) Everybody in this forum is polite and respectful except Valery and me.

incorrect...

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:2) Valery is a thief and there is no need to be polite to a thief.

no one said that... everything has been pointing to the overwhelming evidence provided by valery...

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:3) Flightgear is art and therefore there is no need to ask the original producers of what you are copying for permission.

incorrect...

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:4) Once somebody has copied something other companies produced into her own models, it is absolutely forbidden to copy those models without asking permission.

incorrect...

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:I am not ok with any of those points but that is only my personal opinion and I will leave it here.
Anybody can read the posts and make up their own mind :D

true... but one must also do it without applying their own emotion to others' words...

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:08 pm:For me personally this topic was very useful because I learned a lot how this forum works and what type of communication is considered acceptable here.
I feel that for some of you this topic is not so pleasant, so sorry for bothering you.

sadly, you didn't really learn how this forum works... yes this is an unpleasant topic... it always is... questions were asked but answers were not given... instead where one took offense at basic questions, they responded by being defensive and attacking... those basic questions still have not been answered... even direct and specific questions have not been answered... answering just one of those would go a long way to clearing up the entire mess... instead of being offended that someone would dare ask questions, one should be thankful and glad of it... especially when they are proud of their achievement...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:37 pm

bugman wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:40 pm:However the web interface for this repository has been deleted: https://sourceforge.net/p/bell-412/code. Interestingly all the copyright statements were added 5 days ago:

Code: Select all
r54 | vslash | 2018-02-21 22:31:14 +0100 (Wed, 21 Feb 2018) | 1 line

interesting also is that this is only r54... if this craft has been worked on for over a year and a half, one would expect there to be a lot more revisions in the repository...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:11 pm

To obtain a full copy the Subversion source repository for 'archival' purposes, preserving the full commit history, just run:

Code: Select all
rsync -av svn.code.sf.net::p/bell-412/code bell-412-code


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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:45 pm

FlightGear team: thanks for all your efforts to dive in and research the origins of the vslash 412 model. I have managed to make contact with Cerasim directly. They have also confirmed the vslash model was originally derived from their own work. But then they quickly followed that statement with a note saying they may still be willing to allow reuse/redistribution of their model under certain conditions. It doesn't appear they have officially granted permission to anyone for this, but if their legal team is able to work through the process with Valery, and if he is willing to make the necessary changes to his license and copyright statement, and the final result is positive, that will be great for everyone involved.

So from my perspective, we need some more patience from the FlightGear team to see how this story continues to unfold. We have confirmed the origins of the model (and hopefully cleared up that dispute.) But now there appears to be a chance Cerasim is willing to give vslash permission to use their work anyway assuming some conditions are met and their legal team signs off on it.

Let's wait and see how this all plays out and hope for the most positive outcome possible for everyone involved.

Best regards,

Curt.
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University of Minnesota
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:05 pm

Damn, I really wanted to keep my mouth shut now.

But what you have done there, curt, is so right that I can not but applause you! Well done :P

Besides that, I would appreciate if one could open another topic for the Bell412 case.
Maybe, if there is interest, still another one for the IP issue.

This topic was started by me and was originally about polite and respectful communication. The above topics are now a "bit" off topic :wink:
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:43 pm

Hi Hans,

Let's wait to hear what Cerasim ultimately decides after they have had a chance to communicate with Valery directly. I don't want to over speculate here, but it sounds like Valery could have saved himself a lot of trouble if he would have simply asked permission in the first place, then waited for a positive reply, and then made sure to be clear about the origins of his project and give clear and correct credit as requested. The Cerasim team seems really friendly and open to considering this if proper credit is given for their work.

Best regards,

Curt.
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University of Minnesota
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:23 pm

I fully agree. I believe Valery has not done that because he is sure that CeraSim has not developed their model from scratch but they bought it themselves from a source that might be open source by now.
We will see what comes out of this. I am really looking forward to CerSim's detailed statement on the issue.

But I am SOOOOO happy that finally somebody bothers to really look where needs to be looked! Finally you guys will be able to communicate based on facts rather than accusation and defense.

Again: Would it make sense to open a new topic for this? (see my previous post)
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:32 pm

Well to be fair, we started this process quite a little while ago. Cerasim just responded to me today. We were working with the facts in hand, which were quite different than Valery characterized them. Because of the discrepancy we asked direct questions to try to give Valery a chance to clarify what was going on. I don't think his responses were accurate; they don't align with Cerasim's information. So I think we were fully justified in asking questions, even if it did create an unpleasant situation. The unpleasantness was created by vslash's initial copying, his attempts to obscure the sources, and his mischaracterizations of his own actions. I have always said that it is fair to ask fair questions. If Cerasim does ultimately grant permission to Valery, then at least for today, he is the luckiest guy on the planet and I would strongly recommend he also goes out and buys a lottery ticket! :-)
Aerospace Engineering and Mechanics
University of Minnesota
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