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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm

Uhm, I am so stubborn that I still do not agree on the middle part of what you write.
My logic is that there must be the time to wait for CeraSim's answer before making a lot of pressure to Valery. But that's arguable and only my personal opinion.

Luckily it seems that this will not matter any longer....
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:18 pm

I'm basing my words on communication with Cerasim stating they clearly recognized valery's model as their own. They stated they hadn't granted permission for reuse, but they were willing to consider it. Comparing that against valery's characterization of the situation and I think the two positions are pretty far apart. Valery's copyright currently states (in the README & COPYRIGHT of his public release):

Authors / Copyright
Valéry Seys / v...@....com

This software and all of its data are the property of
Valéry Seys -- v....com

So on the face of it, Cerasim and Valery are currently in disagreement over who owns all the software and data (or at least who created it and who owns the copyright), but I trust they will be able to work out some sort of reasonable terms and the README file will be updated to reflect their agreement. That is what I hope anyway.

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:01 am

But what you have done there, curt, is so right that I can not but applause you! Well done :P


I suppose it goes a long way to understand the background of the thread to imagine Curt had done the exactly same thing - but Cerasim had responded with takedown notices and a lawsuit.

Would Hans have written also that what Curt did is so right? Or would we read more about policing, disrespectfulness, persecution of innocent content creators etc.? I wonder...

My logic is that there must be the time to wait for CeraSim's answer before making a lot of pressure to Valery.


That's a very strange logic. If someone steals 100$ from me, he's a thief. I might later decide 'what the heck, I have enough money, I'm not pushing the matter - let him keep my money'. That decision doesn't make him any less of a thief though - he remains a person who would take other people's money because he can.

Cerasim already recognized the model as their own. What other answer might we be waiting for here?
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:24 am

@Thorsten:

But what you have done there, curt, is so right that I can not but applause you! Well done :P


I suppose it goes a long way to understand the background of the thread to imagine Curt had done the exactly same thing - but Cerasim had responded with takedown notices and a lawsuit.

Would Hans have written also that what Curt did is so right? Or would we read more about policing, disrespectfulness, persecution of innocent content creators etc.? I wonder...


Please STOP to make assumptions and STOP to wonder in written format (I can not and do not want to tell you what you THINK) about what I would have done.
It is how it is and I react how I react.
STOP STOP STOP!!!

To make it very clear to you: I feel harassed by you if you write such things.

If you have a problem with me, please ignore me or ask the admins to delete what ever is disturbing you so much. but please STOP writing to me or about me!

That's a very strange logic. If someone steals 100$ from me, he's a thief. I might later decide 'what the heck, I have enough money, I'm not pushing the matter - let him keep my money'. That decision doesn't make him any less of a thief though - he remains a person who would take other people's money because he can.

Cerasim already recognized the model as their own. What other answer might we be waiting for here?


I am not even going to comment this any more.
I just repeat: STOP commenting on things that are not your business. Valery has not stolen anything from you and not from me. If he has stolen something from CeraSim, then it is good that Curt and others have found out about this and notified CeraSim about it. But now this is CeraSim, Valery and the REAL police. Not you Thorsten!
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:53 am

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:23 pm:But I am SOOOOO happy that finally somebody bothers to really look where needs to be looked! Finally you guys will be able to communicate based on facts rather than accusation and defense.


That is rich. Valery should have done this at the start - himself - rather than FlightGear code and content developers wasting their time acting as detectives to uncover this massive rip off of an FSX model:

Image

Remember: This is a legal liability not just for Valery, but also for the administrators and moderators of this forum as he was advertising the proceeds of his blatant theft here on this forum. Why should I be polite to such a thief when his actions could land me in a court of law in some remote land (USA, Canada, UK, Germany, China, India, Brazil, South Africa, etc.)? We can very easily be pulled into a court case in the USA as the FlightGear project does not have a registered DMCA agent in the US! Please look at that image above and tell me with a straight face that this wasn't deliberate theft. I think your attitude here does not reconcile with your statement that you understand copyright and IP law. Or rather that you are trying to defend a friend here. But if you expect politeness from me here, me who as a moderator is legally liable, you are sorely mistaken. Sorry to disappoint you. For this politeness thing, like you might say - das ist mir Wurst!

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:34 am

It is how it is and I react how I react.


Not really - it's about the massive discrepancy between what you claim as your motivation and what you actually do in this thread as perceived by more than one person.

You reliably react well to anything that makes the aircraft you obviously like smell less fishy and lets its claimed author appear less guilty and all else gets branded as impolite and disrespectful by you. You have shown yourself ready to mix something that is illegal (copyright violations) with an FG-specific policy just to weaken the pile of evidence. Given that, I believe we can all readily guess your reaction if Cerasim had responded differently.

So please do us a favour and don't make this about respect or politeness - it really is not how the rest of us uses these words.

I feel harassed by you if you write such things.


Sorry about that - it's not my intention to harrass you, it's my intention to point out the flaws in your reasoning here.

But now this is CeraSim, Valery and the REAL police. Not you Thorsten!


Last time I checked, I didn't get involved in the legal proceedings. As a member of this forum (and of the FG development team), I do speak up against the way actions of other forum members to ensure legal compliance of the project are characterized by yourself.

If you criticize the people who have taken on the work to investigate authorship properly as disrespectful, you will have to accept that others take issue with your characterization and say so. Sounds fair to me at least...
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:04 pm

@any admin:

I quote myself:

If you have a problem with me, please ignore me or ask the admins to delete what ever is disturbing you so much. but please STOP writing to me or about me!


I still feel harassed by what Thorsten writes. I see no reason why Thorsten could not just stop writing to or about me, but he does not stop.
I clearly stated that I want this to stop.
Normally I would expect a forum admin to interact here.

I quote bugman:

For this politeness thing, like you might say - das ist mir Wurst!


For the non Germans: "das ist mir Wurst" means "I don't care"

So dear admins, bugman clearly states that he does not care about politeness. I would again expect an interaction from admin side.
If no admin interacts here, at least we have a a clear statement that in this forum it is accepted policy that people do not care about politeness.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:07 pm

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:04 pm:For the non Germans: "das ist mir Wurst" means "I don't care"

So dear admins, bugman clearly states that he does not care about politeness. I would again expect an interaction from admin side.
If no admin interacts here, at least we have a a clear statement that in this forum it is accepted policy that people do not care about politeness.


Sorry, my legal liability trumps your concern for politeness.

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby gsagostinho » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:40 pm

hans05 wrote in Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:23 pm:I believe Valery has not done that because he is sure that CeraSim has not developed their model from scratch but they bought it themselves from a source that might be open source by now.


What makes you believe that CeraSim bought their model, is this based on something concrete? And what could have made Valery believe that the material might be open source? Anything in the public domain or GPL must come with a license, so it's really trivial to know if something is available for you in a project like this or not.

From my side, even if CeraSim grant him permission to use their textures and model I would still not want anything to do with Valery or his model because: 1) who can guarantee that there are no other copyrighted material there, such as that sound files that seemed to have been lifted from Youtube? 2) even if there would be no more copyrighted infringement any longer, I simply lost complete trust on him as a developer, and his stubbornness to prove himself right in face of evidence just shows that he hasn't changed a bit since this discussion started. 3) he was extremely aggressive with his threats to me and others here in the forum and so I just don't want to see him around here any longer nor to have anything to do with him again. I will simply pass every one of his projects.
Last edited by gsagostinho on Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:53 pm

@gsagostinho:

I am pretty sure that I personally have not stolen anything.
Still some people here communicate in a very rude way to me.

At the moment that is all I care about.

I would like this to stop before I comment further on this issue.

@admins:
Again, I am calling to admins to stop this communication that I clearly stated that I feel harassed by it.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby gsagostinho » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:56 pm

@hans05 you dodged my questions above, which is one way of answering it. As for the harassment bit, that's quite something... please point to me what in my message made you feel harassed. I simply asked you where did you get your facts from and then gave my own opinion on why I wouldn't trust Valery's projects ever again. If someone else's perspective offends you, then perhaps a forum is not the best place for you to hang around.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:56 pm

@hans05: just walk away from the conversation if you feel harassed... you don't have to stay in the topic and read it further... heck, use the UCP (User Control Panel) and mark that person as a non-friend and all their posts will be blocked from you even seeing them...

i will say, though, that some folks need to grow a thicker skin and stop acting like snowflakes :roll: :roll: :roll:
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:40 pm

Hans, you say this:

hans05 wrote in Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:39 am:If you guys find that some model might be stolen from somewhere, would it be more respectful towards the developer to assume that there is a mistake or misunderstanding somewhere?!


Then I post clear evidence of theft, something that you have refused to address:

Image

This is most definitely not a "mistake or misunderstanding". Valery was asked about licensing starting 2 years ago! Not only does he not answer anything about this, avoiding the many questions asked, but you are now also avoiding questions.

Let me ask you, why on Earth should I be polite to Valery when he puts me in personal legal jeopardy? And not only that, but also lies about it, avoids questions, and then physically threaten members of this forum? I am really starting to wonder if there is not something more to this story!

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby hans05 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm

@wkitty42:

just walk away from the conversation if you feel harassed... you don't have to stay in the topic and read it further... heck,


This is MY topic. I have asked several times to open new topics for the Bell412 issue or IP related stuff. Nothing happened.
I feel it wrong that I would need to walk away from my own topic. What do you think?

use the UCP (User Control Panel) and mark that person as a non-friend and all their posts will be blocked from you even seeing them...


That seems to be no option in my case since I feel that I have to monitor what people like Thorsten, bugman and maybe some others write about me. I will not accept them continuing write bad about me without me continuing to point our that it is wrong what they are doing.
I repeatedly asked Thorsten to stop writing about or to me but he will not stop. Admins are not stopping him. I would like to include bugman to this request as well. bugman, please stop writing to me or about me.

Once they stop writing about me, only then I can block them from my sight. Otherwise, believe me, I would have done that already some time ago....
Is there a function in this forum so that they do not see what I write? That would be another option, but I guess that does not exist.

@gsagostinho:

you dodged my questions above


I am really sorry about that. But as long as Thorsten, bugman and some others refuse to leave me alone, I do not dare to write anything with content. Everybody can think what they want about me, but I truly am hurt by what they do to me, in my opinion (again you can think otherwise!) they keep on twisting my words, ripping things out of context and the lot.
Now, I see the danger that Thorsten will copy/paste the above and write something like "Where is the evidence. You yourself act like that!".
You see, gsagostinho, if those two guys do not stop bugging me, I can not write anything without them trying to put me down. Let alone I could write something "real".
So, dodging your question is nothing against you! Well except if you are also one of those who do not value politeness and respect ;-)

As for the harassment bit, that's quite something... please point to me what in my message made you feel harassed.


There is nothing wrong with your post! I do not feel harassed by you (so far :wink: )
I was referring to the ongoing harassment that I (Subjectively! Again, you might see this differently.) feel that I am receiving from at least Thorsten and bugman.
I am sorry that I wrote in a misleading way. Please remember that I am German, I guarantee you that I try my best to make my messages clear in English language and not offend anybody (I admit easily that I make many mistakes though!).
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:53 pm

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:@wkitty42:

just walk away from the conversation if you feel harassed... you don't have to stay in the topic and read it further... heck,


This is MY topic.

you might have started it but that's where any similarity of possession over the topic ended... you own your posts but that's it...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:I have asked several times to open new topics for the Bell412 issue or IP related stuff. Nothing happened.

so go open one! you can do that, ya know??? you don't have to wait on anyone else to open one...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:I feel it wrong that I would need to walk away from my own topic. What do you think?

that's your choice if you want to continue exposing yourself to what you consider to be harassment :shrug: you have the power to walk away from the conversation just like you might if you were sitting at a table on the street eating and didn't like the conversation going on around you...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:
use the UCP (User Control Panel) and mark that person as a non-friend and all their posts will be blocked from you even seeing them...


That seems to be no option in my case

now you're being silly... it is always an option...

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:since I feel that I have to monitor what people like Thorsten, bugman and maybe some others write about me. I will not accept them continuing write bad about me without me continuing to point our that it is wrong what they are doing.
I repeatedly asked Thorsten to stop writing about or to me but he will not stop. Admins are not stopping him. I would like to include bugman to this request as well. bugman, please stop writing to me or about me.

mommy! mommy! he's pulling my hair! :roll:

hans05 wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:46 pm:I am sorry that I wrote in a misleading way. Please remember that I am German, I guarantee you that I try my best to make my messages clear in English language and not offend anybody (I admit easily that I make many mistakes though!).

part of the problem seems to be in translating things back from English to other languages... i've dealt with similar for 30+ years in another message network that has world-wide members... it isn't fun and certainly takes away something when folks have revert to 4th grade speech so that everyone can try to understand simpler verbiage :(
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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