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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Hooray » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:10 pm

hans05 wrote:Oh dear, another person who is impolite [...] Is politeness a lost art? Has respect been lost in the last years?

I don't disagree with your suggestion that people deal with eachother in a respectful wayy.

However, how is the recommendation to check your facts (do a little research/homework first) before making certain statements/postings considered disrespectful ?
Really, that's a genuine question.

As a matter of fact, many people around here would consider it disrespectful to see someone posting here without doing said homework first, because that implies that the corresponding party considers their time more worthy than our's, which carries across the notion of asking for said "homework" to be spoon-fed to such a person ? Especially, if the corresponding pointers, and links, have been provided to enable the corresponding person to actually do some of their legwork before asking others to set the record straight by pointing out ill-informed assumptions ?

I don't have to agree with everything that bugman or Thorsten said, but can still disagree with some of the points you have made - yet, you're turning this into a completely different debate.

And to be honest, I don't have any agenda here at all - I am not involved in any aircraft development or repository maintenance, and if you were to do a little of your own research first, you'd also learn that there are countless topics where you'll find me on opposing ends of the debate, even disagreeing with people like Thorsten, bugman, Curt or others considered by many to be "part of the establishment".

I was merely pointing out that you are doing the exact same thing that you are asking others not to do with your own statements: assuming what they think/do, and in that particular case, I actually digged out a relevant posting proving that you cannot simply assume that things are as they seem to you - which is very well supported by the removal of the Honda jet, which is a rather compelling example to be made given the scope of this discussion.

I am sorry that you apparently don't have the time look up the details, but I am not sorry for pointing out that it is disrespectful to expect others to set the record straight, because someone is unwilling to do some of their own legwork first.

If you think this is a language issue (I am not getting the impression that is the case though), I'd suggest to consider posting in your native language - we've contributors from all over the world, and Curt recently mentioned in another topic that 20% of the website visitors are in fact from Germany - so there's certainly no shortage to have comments or even postings translated.

Personally, I am staying out of this, even though I agree with some of the points you made and disagree with quite a few that bugman made, but I don't exactly subscribe to your attitude, or rather, your notion of entitlement - which is pretty mistaken in my opinion. Anyway, good luck to you - regardless of your "intentions" here ...
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Thorsten » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:51 pm

I still feel harassed by what Thorsten writes.

You may feel that way, but that doesn't make it so. Any unbiased reader won't find anything mean-spirited, impolite or demeaning in what I write - I claim that you are wrong in many things and give my reasoning for that, which is probably unpleasant for you (none of us likes being shown wrong) - but that's not the same as harassment.

I see no reason why Thorsten could not just stop writing to or about me, but he does not stop. I clearly stated that I want this to stop.

Yeah - and I clearly indicated that I would like you to stop calling people who do their job investigating copyright questions disrespectful or impolite - did this make you stop so far? The reason I write something is simply that I feel there's something to write, same as for you. There's no obligation for me to follow whatever request you make just because you opened the thread, sorry - it's a public forum. (Just as there's no obligation for you to follow whatever request I may make - if that needs to be spelled out.)

Generally, you seem to expect the right to criticize others and e.g. call their work devoid of any originality but to be exempt from any criticism of your own actions - it's not hard to work out why this can't be :D
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby Clive2670 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:23 pm

I don't wish to get embroiled in this, But IMHO there needs to be some sort of "Policing" within the community otherwise it would be a free for all and numerous copyright issues would then arise. From the previous posts that I have read, It looks like the person in question has been asked to prove if the "items" used are subject to copyright (or not as the case may be) and [They] have failed to prove that they aren't. So I think that it is correct not to publish the aircraft until the person can prove without question the validity of the non copyrighted material used, I personally would be only too willing to clear my name if someone pointed the finger at me if I knew I was in the clear!. I WOULD STRESS I DO-NOT TAKE ANYONES "SIDE" This simply is an observation from my point of view. If I am wrong in any points I've made above, please feel free to correct me.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby stuart » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:57 pm

Hi All,

@hans05 has asked a number of times on this thread that an admin step in here and moderate on the grounds that he is being harassed.

Having reviewed the thread, at this point I see no evidence of harassment or grounds for moderation.

As always, I would ask people to continue to act in a polite and respectful manner even if they disagree.

That is all.

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby curt » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 pm

I should also be quick to clarify that when we have asked someone to prove they aren't infringing on other's copyrights, it has only been after clear evidence of copying has been presented. We don't normally ask anyone to disprove a negative. In this case, the deeper we dug, the more clear evidence we uncovered, and then Cerasim themselves weighed in (privately) that they had also taken a look at the situation and identified the model origins as their commercial work. It is hard to argue against a large accumulation of facts and remain polite (as vslash demonstrated to us all.)

Despite all this, it appears that Cerasim is willing to consider a path forward. That would be amazingly kind of them, especially if they took the time to review vslash's messages and attitude on the subject. So we'll see how this plays out once the cerasim legal team has a chance to communicate with vslash. As I said before, I hope for the best possible outcome for all involved. All this arguing now is pretty pointless and seems to be ranging though completely peripheral topics. Now, the situation is between cerasim and vslash to work out.
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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby erik » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:17 am

curt wrote in Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:13 pm:Despite all this, it appears that Cerasim is willing to consider a path forward. That would be amazingly kind of them

Indeed, hats off to them.

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Re: Not a very pleasant experience!

Postby bugman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:14 am

Let me just add some more information about this image:


The images on the left are from Cera Sim's Bell 412 ER from this review from November 2009:

The images on the right are from Valery Seys' (vslash) SVN r54 from 2018-02-21:

Code: Select all
[edward@localhost Bell-412]$ svn info
Path: .
Working Copy Root Path: /flightgear/hangar/Bell-412
Relative URL: ^/
Repository Root:
Repository UUID: 95ea6a39-df51-484a-b627-b32d0b048725
Revision: 54
Node Kind: directory
Schedule: normal
Last Changed Author: vslash
Last Changed Rev: 54
Last Changed Date: 2018-02-21 22:31:14 +0100 (Wed, 21 Feb 2018)

[edward@localhost Bell-412]$

Although the public SVN repository has now been eliminated by vslash, I still have a local backup and can see that the first commit was from June 2016:

Code: Select all
r1 | vslash | 2016-06-20 15:37:21 +0200 (Mon, 20 Jun 2016) | 1 line
Changed paths:
   A /.project
   A /Bell-412-set.xml
   A /Bell-412-yasim-working.xml
   A /Bell-412-yasim.xml
   A /Session.vim
   A /_FRAMEWORK.txt
   A /_Nomenclatures.txt
   A /_TODO
   A /_enginesAndPower.txt
   A /_fgbell412-schematic.png
   A /_schematic.graphml
   A /sync

Initial commit

For reference, the following archived FGMEMBERS forum thread might be of interest:

As a side note, if you see that someone has taken sounds from a YouTube source, try to perform some more due diligence than shown in that thread. Go to that source, click on "SHOW MORE", and check the licence. If it says Standard YouTube License, tell the developer that they cannot use that sound. You or the developer can however ask the YouTube content creator (under the video or on their personal YouTube "Discussion" page) for a licence to the sound track on that video. I.e. GPLv2+, public domain, or CC0 (or other CC licenses if that's how you'd like to go). If you ask nicely and explain what you'd like to do, you might just get a licence. Make sure though that there is a public statement by the content creator saying they agree to license their sound track under licence X. This agreement should be backed up for the future. I.e. a copy distributed with the aircraft, and probably also a copy stored on the Internet Archive WayBack Machine.

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Re: Bell 412

Postby bugman » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:35 am

For thread continuity, I will merge the following topic:

That is because it is too hard to split up this thread into Hans' initial subject and all of the Bell 412 discussions, as asked for by Hans. I will also unlock this thread to allow for more discussions on the merged thread.

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