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Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 14, 2015 3:10 pm

Hi D-LASER

I've scripted and run the grep based dependencies finder line (very much as above but excluding also Generic, Instruments, c172p, and ufo)

All find is in this clear to understand pipe-out file

Aircraft dependencies

I think getting those dependencies fixed is a simple task. And there are not too many

Would anyone want to tackled this problem for FGMEMBERS? --while still keeping in mind that dependencies to expansion packs are intended, and not a mistake

like depending to JPakc, or DavePack, or FGUK packs, or Onox's ExpansionPack. Those need no correction
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Thu May 14, 2015 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby Johan G » Thu May 14, 2015 3:48 pm

Errors like ...
Code: Select all
Could not find at least one of the following objects for animation: '<object>'

... and ...
Code: Select all
osgDB ac3d reader: could not find texture "<path and/or file name>"

... are usually due to errors in the .ac (AC3D) files.

As the .ac files are ASCII files one can search for object names ("^name \"") and texture file names ("^texture \""). Sometimes you will find a similar object or file name in the same or a related directory.

For the <model>.xml file to correctly refer to the objects either the .ac files or the xml files have to be edited.

For the .ac file to correctly refer to the texture files either the texture files can be renamed or the .ac files have to be edited.

Side note: I thought I did this for the Mirage, but that might have been before starting to use Git. Anyway I would have to take myself time for that. I do not remember it as taking too long.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby LesterBoffo » Thu May 14, 2015 3:55 pm

Neither here nor there but there is one 'paper-cut bug' in FG that I've also routinely encounter in other sims, that not very many of of them do any propeller, ( and engine..) ixx mass precessional effects at the FDM coding level. Meaning that any plane with a rotating propeller, (mass) doesn't do a properly modeled gyroscopic force as part of the basic coding for the FDM. Flug tried to do this with an extremely complex (external) systems/nasal fix for the Camel as a JSB sim FDM. It works in it's own charming way, but it's not an actual base coded processional effect. I've only encountered propeller gyro precession in one sim and that was RedBaron3D, which of course would have had this because 50% of the aircraft in the sim had really big gyroscopes bolted to their firewall, the rotary engine is a 260 to 340 pound, roughly 0.9 meter diameter nickel steel flywheel turning with the propeller.

The point of this ramble is such, there are gaps and omissions in both FDM's in FG at the base coding, either because there just wasn't enough time or knowledge to implement for the volunteers who coded the initial code. Hence we have lot's of external nasal fixes for physics that would/should have been part of FDM coding from the start, some of the external fixes which are messy and some are downright kludges. Oddly enough both YASim and JSBSim include entries in their engine and propeller sections that imply that there should be gyro processional physics present. But they don't work.

You'll have to ask those who have moved on as to why this was left this way.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby LesterBoffo » Thu May 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Johan G wrote in Thu May 14, 2015 3:48 pm:Errors like ...
Code: Select all
Could not find at least one of the following objects for animation: '<object>'

... and ...
Code: Select all
osgDB ac3d reader: could not find texture "<path and/or file name>"

... are usually due to errors in the .ac (AC3D) files.

As the .ac files are ASCII files one can search for object names ("^name \"") and texture file names ("^texture \""). Sometimes you will find a similar object or file name in the same or a related directory.

For the <model>.xml file to correctly refer to the objects either the .ac files or the xml files have to be edited.

For the .ac file to correctly refer to the texture files either the texture files can be renamed or the .ac files have to be edited.

Side note: I thought I did this for the Mirage, but that might have been before starting to use Git. Anyway I would have to take myself time for that. I do not remember it as taking too long.


In my modeling I often times borrow a bit from another plane's .ac if it looks like it will look the part, to save time. Of course many times I've forgotten to update the new part's new local texture co-ords vis a vis through AC3D or Meta, or an entire folder with an instrument or other <model> that had previously been in another aircraft on an older install of FG.

Unintentional dependencies mean we have to go through our new aircraft with a fine tooth comb.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu May 14, 2015 10:38 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Thu May 14, 2015 2:45 pm:We can see below that the CRJ700 does not have dependencies anymore. except to Generic.
Note: $(basename $PWD) outputs CRJ700-family, when inside that directory
Code: Select all
israel@linux-hkow:~/local/source/fgdataNew/Aircraft/CRJ700-family> grep -h "Aircraft/" *xml  | grep -v $(basename $PWD)
         <file>Aircraft/Generic/DualControl/dual-control-tools.nas</file>
         <file>Aircraft/Generic/DualControl/copilot-dual-control.nas</file>
            <!--radar-texture-path type="string">Aircraft/777/Models/Instruments/MFD/od_wxradar.png</radar-texture-path>
            <symbol-texture-path type="string">Aircraft/777/Models/Instruments/MFD/nd_symbols.png</symbol-texture-path-->
            <file>Aircraft/Generic/DualControl/dual-control-tools.nas</file>
            <file>Aircraft/Generic/DualControl/pilot-dual-control.nas</file>


I know I removed those dependancies to the 777 od_wxradar.png and nd_symbols.png. Did that new file not get added or the changes not ported over?
--Ray
Post Edit: here it is incase it never got picked up.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kesuzy9tok6p2e/CRJ700-family20150510b.zip?dl=0
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Thu May 14, 2015 10:43 pm

It got added perfectly fine :D

Was just doing a demostration. CRJ700 has zero dependencies over other aircrafts.
See this file:

Dependencies to be corrected

There is not dependencies to correct for the CRJ700 family anymore
All aircraft which dependencies to be corrected is indicated, and the exact lines are printed.

Israel
Last edited by IAHM-COL on Fri May 15, 2015 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby Hooray » Fri May 15, 2015 12:19 am

LesterBoffo wrote in Thu May 14, 2015 3:55 pm:Neither here nor there but there is one 'paper-cut bug' in FG that I've also routinely encounter in other sims[...] The point of this ramble is such, there are gaps and omissions in both FDM's in FG at the base coding, either because there just wasn't enough time or knowledge to implement for the volunteers who coded the initial code.


I do not disagree with the notion that there's tons of hackish/problematic Nasal code all over the place trying to work around such limitations, and that this should ideally be addressed at some point - however, the whole point you made above may be really relevant/important to you, but it obviously isn't as relevant to many others, and it also doesn't match the criteria posted/requested to be used by bugman in his introductory posting, as per:

Subject: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs
bugman wrote:I'm not talking about fixing clunky FDMs or incomplete parts, but really basic maintenance - aircraft which start with tonnes of errors, and especially aircraft that cannot be started.


Thus, I would politely suggest not to hijack this thread by raising tons of contributor specific pet peeves, or this may quickly become really irrelevant.
If you are truly passionate about getting this fixed, I would suggest to team up with other contributors interested in this - such as e.g. the combat folks you mentioned briefly (Bomber comes to mind) - and maybe come up with an RFC on the wiki that you can raise on the devel/JSBSim list to ask for feedback.

It is true that this kind of stuff shouldn't be done in Nasal - these days, even using property rules would be a feasible workaround, without being specific to any particular FDM engine.

If you agree, we can split off your postings and move them to a dedicated thread in the FDM sub forum.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Fri May 15, 2015 7:10 am

LesterBoffo wrote in Thu May 14, 2015 3:55 pm:Neither here nor there but there is one 'paper-cut bug' in FG that I've also routinely encounter in other sims, that not very many of of them do any propeller, ( and engine..) ixx mass precessional effects at the FDM coding level. Meaning that any plane with a rotating propeller, (mass) doesn't do a properly modeled gyroscopic force as part of the basic coding for the FDM. Flug tried to do this with an extremely complex (external) systems/nasal fix for the Camel as a JSB sim FDM. It works in it's own charming way, but it's not an actual base coded processional effect. I've only encountered propeller gyro precession in one sim and that was RedBaron3D, which of course would have had this because 50% of the aircraft in the sim had really big gyroscopes bolted to their firewall, the rotary engine is a 260 to 340 pound, roughly 0.9 meter diameter nickel steel flywheel turning with the propeller.


I am aware of this one too:


However, as Hooray said, this is far beyond a paper cut bug. This is a completely missing feature. It may require hundreds of lines of C/C++ code written for YASim and separately for JSBSim. If you are really interested in this, maybe you should bring the discussion into the development mailing lists:


Obviously telling a developer to do something will never work, but having a productive discussion with the relevant developers on the devel-list about what would be required could lead to it being added in the near future. Anyway, you will more likely find the relevant people to ask about why it was only partly implemented in those forums than here. Note that the gyroscopic effect is only really relevant for the early rotary engines, so really only the pre-1920s aircraft will benefit from this development.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri May 15, 2015 3:08 pm

Dear Ed (bugman)

I am more than a liitle surprised by your reaction towards Lesbof. What he has done is exactly what this thread is about. He told you was what he considered is a paper cut type of a bug. If I recall correctly, this thread is for everyone here to come forward proposing you those little fixes, which you friendly and amiable offered to try to fix for us.

But you snap off to Lesbof and tell him, "do it yourself" ?! Besides, the final call of what is a paper cut and what is a more complicate fix is completely up to you.

It is not needed, Ed. If you don't want to address a particular bug here, no one will force you. But please, understand that Lesbof was only trying to help you :)

Best
Israel
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Fri May 15, 2015 3:33 pm

Hi Israel,

I know that LesterBoffo is very interested in pre-1920's aircraft. And I am also not yet capable of implementing the feature he desires that would be of great benefit for some of his aircraft developments, as well as for those of others. The FDM development is complicated because JSBSim is not part of the FG core whereas YASim, UIUC, LaRCsim, UFO, ACMS, ADA, Balloon, and MagicCarpet are. Therefore what I have done is to simply help point him in the best direction to obtain the best result for his aircraft. Following the advice of talking directly to the developers will have a far greater chance of having this feature implemented in the future than any discussions here (where those who would add such features will not be found).

Regards,

Edward
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby Thorsten » Fri May 15, 2015 6:18 pm

Meaning that any plane with a rotating propeller, (mass) doesn't do a properly modeled gyroscopic force as part of the basic coding for the FDM.


Then put it in - gyroscopic forces are just moments, JSBSim knows how to do moments, JSBSim has elements to do quite complex functions up to integrals and differentials, so if you know the formula, you can code it in. After playing with JSBSim for a month, I have yet to encounter the effect I can not code in using the available elements.

And yes, a feature which is typically not implemented by developers (not even missing because it could be done) doesn't qualify as a bug. So no, this is not what this thread is about.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby LesterBoffo » Fri May 15, 2015 6:40 pm

IAHM-COL wrote in Fri May 15, 2015 3:08 pm:Dear Ed (bugman)

I am more than a liitle surprised by your reaction towards Lesbof. What he has done is exactly what this thread is about. He told you was what he considered is a paper cut type of a bug. If I recall correctly, this thread is for everyone here to come forward proposing you those little fixes, which you friendly and amiable offered to try to fix for us.

But you snap off to Lesbof and tell him, "do it yourself" ?! Besides, the final call of what is a paper cut and what is a more complicate fix is completely up to you.

It is not needed, Ed. If you don't want to address a particular bug here, no one will force you. But please, understand that Lesbof was only trying to help you :)

Best
Israel


No Israel they are right, as my request was more of an ask for fix for both the FDM's of FG aircraft, and not aimed at fixing specific aircraft folder bugs. Still is a little thread topic drift that disruptive?

I have to ask, was my post that inflammatory?

I opened with saying this post was 'neither here nor there' in relation to the thread, and I've looked into attempting to fix this myself, but knowing my limitations, to be honest I'm not a programmer like others have skills at. What Thorsten suggests I do is a bit out of my experience, especially as this would require a complete FGFS .cxx rewrite (plus recompiling..?) if I understand the terminology.

Both FDM's already establish a place in 3D space for the inertial influence in either ixx or 'moment' for a propeller of the aircraft in question. They just don't work presently. I'll leave it at that. :?
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Fri May 15, 2015 6:51 pm

LesterBoffo wrote in Fri May 15, 2015 6:40 pm:Still is a little thread topic drift that disruptive?


Not at all, so feel free to keep them coming :) I'll just point in the right direction. Or if I can't, then hopefully someone else will. I really do hope you take it up with the devel-lists - as a discussion rather than asking for a feature - so that this gets implemented one day. I can't follow up on everything myself, and I know you'd have a great interest in this so you'd be able to take it much further. Cheers!
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby Buckaroo » Sat May 16, 2015 1:05 am

LesterBoffo wrote:Meaning that any plane with a rotating propeller, (mass) doesn't do a properly modeled gyroscopic force as part of the basic coding for the FDM.


In YASim, angular momentum of various components (of which a propeller is one) is summed in a "Gyro" term and works on the rigid body as an internal counter-torque that is applied with an external torque. I have felt the effects in some planes, particularly light-weight tail draggers when the tail comes quickly up or down quickly on takeoff or landing, inducing a yaw. Changing the "mass" and/or "moment" attributes of a propeller appears to affect this, as one would expect. In most aircraft, however, the effect is simply whelmed by other effects.

-Buck

PS: Regarding Yahoo mail, Gmail will often dump a developer post from a Yahoo source in the "spam" bin, at least until I OK that address.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Tue May 19, 2015 11:28 am

Here's a big BIG papercut bug that I'd like to help with. Apparently every ( most? all? some? a few? ) plane that is dependent on the generic a/p has lost keyboard control.
As advertised in the in-plane menu>help
With the a/p on:
the roll arrow keys should adjust the Heading.
the elevator keys should adjust the AltHold altitude or the vertical speed numbers
the pitch control, what happened to the pitch control, there doesn't seem to be any working pitch control after ctrl-p
the IAS should adjust with the page up/down.
There's other stuff, gotta be.
It's broketed. oops.

Does someone know when and how this happened? Like I said, I'm glad to fix as many planes as need be. It's not like I have much else to do. :)

--Ray

meant to add ( post edit ) I imagine it's possibly some properties, or properties paths have changed since the transition to 3series FG.
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