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Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:02 pm

We have no consensus on what "most people fly by", If we are honest.

Being that flightgear is a free simulator, that fact alone might go far to weighing towards the usage of the simulator by people that might not afford additional hardware. If this weighing is taken in consideration, then one could make the argument that "most people fly by keyboard and mouse" because they are not willing to pay for 'pay-for' simulators or additional hardware.

People often have a misconception of who uses flightgear. "Most people" using flightgear never speak in the forum, never run on multiplayer, don't post to the wiki or the mailinglists... on and on.

We should differentiate from "most people" and "most people I am aware of".

100's of thousands of individuals have downloaded, installed, and used flightgear at one time or another.

Yet, only 5791 have ever joined this Forum. Maybe less than 1000 installers ever use multiplayer networks, certainly less than 80 people are logged into multiplayer at any given time, and often as low as 10.

We should be careful when we assume we know the Flightgear audience. Personally, I believe we've never been properly introduced.

Making these fixes to the way flightgear is advertised goes a very long way to building it's credibility with an audience we shall never truly know.

-- Ray
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:07 pm

clrCoda wrote in Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:49 pm:I posted earlier in the thread about this, but got no response, so I thought an image might help.


It will be useful, cheers. I did notice your post, but my plate is rather full at the moment. Once I fix the sound files, plane-by-plane, I'll look at this. Could you give a bit more info? Those keys work for me, but [Ctrl-M] for the map does not.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:27 pm

Ctrl-m for showing the in-plane map was always a mistake and should have never been used.

It would/should work fine on a Linux key-mapped system. But not on a Windows key-mapped system because Windows is still bound to the old fashioned "terminal control keys" and in terminal control, ctrl-m is the same thing as saying "ENTER", that is ENTER and ctrl-m are mapped to the same binding in Windows. So using ctrl-m to open the map should infact close any other dialog you happen to have open in windows as enter is often attached to the close dialog.

This is an issue of keyboard.xml, and not a issue of papercut bugs of aircraft.

For windows flightgear users this hack to keyboard.xml puts the "open map" control under alt-m where it should be, for every user, linux, Mac, or Windows without interupting the current ctrl-m binding that still works in Linux and probably Mac as well.

Code: Select all
 <key n="109">
   <name>m</name>
   <desc>Mixture richer</desc>
   <repeatable type="bool">true</repeatable>
   <binding>
    <command>nasal</command>
    <script>controls.adjMixture(1)</script>
   </binding>
   <mod-alt>
    <desc>Show map</desc>
    <binding>
     <command>dialog-show</command>
     <dialog-name>map</dialog-name>
    </binding>
   </mod-alt>
  </key>


I note that those keys partially work as advertised. I am suggesting that they do not do the things that are advertised by the menu>help>common aircraft dialog as pertains to driving the generic autopilot in planes that use the generic autopilot.

Specifically:

left and right arrow keys no longer adjust the heading in heading hold.
up and down arrow keys no longer adjust the altitude in alt-hold or the vertical speed in VS-hold
Page up and Page down keys no longer adjust the held IAS
and that ctrl-p may set pitch hold, but it is broken and does not hold a pitch.

( sorry I just noticed that not everything in the left box in that image is relevant and things like 5 button still centers controls )

-- Ray
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:38 pm

It occurs to me that what I just said about the generic autopilot controls is again, not an individual plane's papercut bug, but instead, like ctrl-m, a more global issue, somewhere between keyboard.xml and the generic A/P.

Fixing the issue would most likely happen in one place and work for all planes using Generic A/P in one effort.

--thanks, Ray
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:51 pm

clrCoda wrote in Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:38 pm:It occurs to me that what I just said about the generic autopilot controls is again, not an individual plane's papercut bug, but instead, like ctrl-m, a more global issue, somewhere between keyboard.xml and the generic A/P.


That's a better type of paper cut bug, as you fix all planes in one go :) Could this be OS specific? What OS are you using?

Regards,

Edward
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:59 pm

no, ( i'm windows) not OS specific. As I look at Nasal\controls.nas, I can see that much had changed.
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:18 pm

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the fix for this is going to be in controls.nas
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:42 pm

I'm in a flight testing the generic a/p keyboard functions and I'm wrong about a couple things.

I'm using MaverickAlex Park's Dhc8-400Q which relies on the generic a/p and it's keyboard functions.

Seems adjusting heading hold with the left/right arrow keys works fine
Seems adjusting the altitude hold with the up/down arrow keys works fine.

The pitch hold does nothing.
Can't adjust the Vertical speed hold with the up/down arrow keys.

The IAS adjustment with page up/down works fine.

This problem is much more minor than I thought. Still a problem for some functions, but not all the functions I first mentioned.

I may have been confused by individual planes that either properly or improperly redefine these functions.
I'll have to test more planes. Doing so.

--Ray
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:56 pm

Some keys work sometimes, all the ctrl ones seem to work...
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby stuart » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:24 pm

Hi All,

A quick note with my "mod" hat on - I've moved some discussion about problems subscribing to the -devel list to this topic:

http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=26283

Carry on...

-Stuart
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby bugman » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:24 pm

Hi,

Just a quick progress report on the time consuming fixing of the silent stereo sound file problem, from the development mailing list thread:


Regards,

Edward
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby IAHM-COL » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:39 pm

Good Job
Thanks Ed.

IH=COL
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it? Probably not, because if they don’t recognise their freedoms, they’ll let their freedoms fall
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:25 am

@bugman,

Hi Edward.
Just figured out what happened to the generic-autopilot keys that no longer function in flightgear.

When someone added key functionality for the recorder they stripped out all of the generic-autopilot key control code. ( even tho they did not update the descriptions which show the A/P functions and not the recorder functions )

This affects the arrow keys, Page UP and DOWN, and the entire Number PAD at least.

It's too dark in my room ( midnight ) to reconfigure my computer to my old XP machine to look at an earlier version of keyboard.xml to get the code, but I'll do that when I wake in the morning.

Re-installing this code should fix several hundred planes to operate the way that HELP>Common Aircraft Keys advertises.

Basically, if the recorder is not running and the A/P functions are selected then these keys should do things like change the heading in HEADING HOLD and the vertical speed or the Altitude hold values when those are engaged and increment and decrement the speed value target in the IAS box.

As I said, this should fix a great number of aircraft, BIG bug fix!
Good night ( /me dreams of better days )
--Ray
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Re: Looking for aircraft with 'paper cut' bugs

Postby clrCoda » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:52 pm

I'm wrong about above. Someone did add recorder functionality, but the problems I am seeking are most likely associated with controls.nas, I see that now.

I wonder if the argument ordering is still correct, for things like the throttle and the ailerons and elevators, but i don't yet know how to look for that.

--Ray
Last edited by Johan G on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changes in handling flaps with Nasal in FG 3.6

Postby clrCoda » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:01 am

Some posts regarding keyboard bindings related to the generic autopilot was moved here from the topic Changes in handling flaps with Nasal in FG 3.6

vanosten wrote in Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:32 am:Ok, there is Keyboard function priority list disproving my assumption of consistency, ...


I notice at that wiki page a complete lack of the generic autopilot keyboard bindings that used to be part of flightgear and are advertised in the "Common Aircraft Keys" in the HELP menu. I would be interested in learning when and how that happened. Would be nice if that functionality were returned for those of us that fly the keyboard regularly.

--Ray
Last edited by Johan G on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Some post weas moved here from Changes in handling flaps with Nasal in FG 3.6
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