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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:34 pm

vitos wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:18 pm:
Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:10 pm:All of those represent collaboration among several contributors (e.g. Gijs, Hyde, Philosopher, Soitanen, artix, www2 etc), because I wasn't responsible for anything single-handedly at all.

Look, You are thinking that You had grown some mass. But at fact You was just maintainer. That mass was not enough to start any own project, and most probably will not.


oh dude, check your facts - most of those were started from scratch - and these particular efforts have helped bootstrap quite a few recent efforts - and because you're using the term "mass": the wiki stats (number of views) are fairly impressive for coding-level contributions (most of these are Nasal/Canvas frameworks, not end-user documentation telling you how to use/fly an aircraft):

>= 25k views for the NavDisplay article
Image

>= 60k views for the MapStructure article
Image

(>=10k views for Canvas RADAR, >= 8k views for the Scripted AI Objects articles, you can refer to the wiki to see the stats for the other efforts)

Also, feel free to refer to the wiki for longer term efforts and the usual view numbers there - e.g. ALS 20k views, Advanced Weather ~35k views, Rembrandt having ~70k views, 777-200ER having "only" ~150k views - while most of these qualify as end-user documentation, not documentation aimed at people wanting to extend the simulator, and with all articles having existed for a much longer period. So yeah, I guess you could say that there's a certain momentum and that people understand how to leverage that.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:39 pm

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:34 pm:So yeah, I guess you could say that there's a certain momentum and that people understand how to leverage that.


But is that momentum about flight really?

Since, You know, if not then Open Source tank simulator would be better solution. Modern tanks do have lots of canvas systems too.

Or, You know, of thing as that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrtwQHOG9Ws
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:00 pm

vitos wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:39 pm:Plus, these things You made are not a things You could fly. It's about flight.
[...]But is that momentum about flight really?


To be honest (and without meaning to offend you), this is where your notion of "collaboration" is probably mistaken and this is why you (and a few others) are getting stuck so often.

You need to realize that people have different requirements, priorities and backgrounds. So collaboration is more about temporary collaboration and about making concessions and finding compromises. You are entirely correct that the aforementioned Canvas related efforts have probably little -if any- bearing for people interested in 1960s space flight or in WW2 aircraft - however, there are others around here, interested in those aspects of flight - think modern airliners (777, A380, 744 etc), modern space craft (SpaceShip2), who cannot proceed without these features.

You have managed to pull off something that maybe only 5-12 other active contributors would be able to do - and apparently entirely on your own, so you're hitting the ceiling of your own skills/expertise and spare time obviously, as well as probably arriving at the conclusion that there is only so much you're willing/able to learn, which is where the whole EarthView debate was coming from.

Then again, others may be interested in stuff that seems irrelevant to you, but they may still have complementary skills, i.e. they may be able to do stuff that you are not interested in - for instance, Thorsten is regularly doing stuff that most others seem not interested in - and equally, when I am getting a PM from Thorsten, he's usually pretty blunt by stating that he's doesn't have the interest/inclination or time to do a certain thing, but that he'd be willing to incorporate stuff that I may come up with.

Stating that scenery development or doing liveries is not as important as FDM development is short-sighted - obviously, a FDM / 3D model seems more relevant than a livery or scenery development - but ultimately it depends on the concrete use-case - e.g. the space shuttle FDM existed long before there was a plausible 3D model, and long before FG even supported the corresponding atmosphere dynamics. Sometimes these efforts are spanning several years, so it is only natural for things to fall into place over time - it's like a huge puzzle - with each piece requiring different skills and backgrounds.

Had you not spent so much time doing the Vostok, we almost certainly would not be having EarthView and the new Space Shuttle FDM Thorsten is working on - but these things take time obviously.

vitos wrote:By the way, are You flying something for time at FG multiplayer? Since, You know, there at MP some crazy guy somewhere at Germany, who does not fly a thing, but sits at some airport, demands others to follow his commands, and to "neglect" ones who do not follow it immediately.

So what, he's doing ATC, and apparently not interested in other things/aspects of FG - which I find just as valid a use-case as everything else. Just think about it: how many people do we have interested in doing ATC, while ATC still is a crucial thing for many folks doing airliner stuff (think VAs).

These are all just "features", and some may seem irrelevant to you - while some of your own interests may not align well with people doing other stuff (think ATC). However, even a space craft like the space shuttle will at some point require ATC services, so it makes sense to collaborate - and simply accept that people have different backgrounds, priorities and skills.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:14 pm

Look, we did converse all of these things before.

Actually I, as, I suppose, many others, had worked on real jobs for time, plus I did have some real collaborations at life on my own, so I do know well how real collaboration works. As well I do know that some of collaborations do not lead You to realizing of Your own plans and ideas. Not only because many of others do not interested in that, but because people, as You had mentioned, do have different priorities.

You did not answered on my question, so, I suppose, You are not flying in simulator even, when that option is presented to You for free. I do not think what collaboration with You would lead me or someone else to flight in any way.

Collaboration with me, instead, would lead You to wish of flight at least. But You are not interested in that, since You do not want to fly.

And, I suppose, that is root of all of our miscomprehendings - not with You only, but with whole FG community.

I said that my three projects was tests, and its true. It was test of possibility of moving some society from "Tom Sawyers fence/Master of puppets" scheme to "Timur and His Squad" scheme.

"MiG-15" was test of what could be in case something good would be made outside of community and presented to it by outsider - will it be treated as equal, or not. That test was failed. "MiG" was craft of month, it's only one craft having some features still, but that was not included in main package, even not rated, left between some halfmade junk heap. I could make "F-86" as well - reaction at alien was vital question.

"Vostok-1" was test of what could be if some common work would be proposed to community on equal basis. Actually it was proposition of common work, since it demands core changes. That test was failed too - instead of core changes, inbetween layer was made, which was not improved anything in core really. Me myself could make such solution too, but it's not real solution, nor in technical, nor in social means. Actually I could get into core by myself even, but I would not invest such efforts into society which treated my previous efforts way it was. As of "Vostok-1" project, it's topic at forum was banned, while "Shuttle" going on, ripping things that was made in it. Again, I could make "Shutlle", but question was reaction at alien.

And "Su-15" was final, and actually not needing in means of decision test. It was made to be sure only, that I do not left any good man behind. Would some outsider, who done clearly visible hard work, superior to anything what was made before, treated as equal really, or not. Not, of course not. Instead of some real conversation, messages are vanished in best Stalins way.

So, forgive me, that community will not fly really. Not because of my decision, but because of yours. Feudalism and flying are incompatible. Pyramids are unflyable.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:53 am

Little update: g-force meter and radiocompass with ten channels.

Image

Stabilization automate keeps g-force below limits now - with it plane flies with accuracy of grayhound, but even beginner, in case he could lift that thing up, would not have big problems at flight. If You want some naturality - switch it off.

Detalisation of heap is lowered a bit - it looks the same practically, but having a bit higher fps.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:36 pm

Update: second generation radar. See targets up horizon only, does not see targets behind mountains. Shows distance and relative speed of selected target, in hold mode keeps target in cross automatically. Made by canvas.

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Re: Su-15

Postby MIG29pilot » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:02 pm

Looks great!
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:12 pm

MIG29pilot wrote in Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:02 pm:Looks great!


Of course it is.
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Re: Su-15

Postby 5H1N0B1 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:18 pm

That's great :)
Did the link I gave you helped a little for radar, or did you re make it from scratch ?
As always this is a beauty.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:01 am

5H1N0B1 wrote in Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:18 pm:That's great :)
Did the link I gave you helped a little for radar, or did you re make it from scratch ?
As always this is a beauty.


Not, I made it by myself purely. I already messed up with geoinfo at "MiG" - I used it for checking attempts to ride trough forests. So to figure out how to use it for radar ray block checking was easy. Most of questions was with canvas - weird wiki of "King Arthur said it shall be done in next year" style, and not normal examples. I wasted day to find out how to rotate objects around point what I mean, not of what that thing mean. Some standard way is existed, surrosedly, but it does not work, so You need to find way that works by "push and see" - not clear examples of rotation about just dot is presented.

BTW, in that canvas You just cant create list and add to it something at runtime - seems to be. Not examples. While it's one of most needed options with radars and maps. And attempts to make some sublayer radar and map to make everyone use it presented - which for sure will not do at most of cases - instead of making normal examples to help others really. And so, and so.

And about one conversation I had at multiplayer - my intention was not to make model which me only could fly. My intention was to make tool to differ people who wants to fly beautiful and powerful planes from people who wants to manipulate others. People who wants to fly from people who wants to command - exactly, and provable. And it works quite well.
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Re: Su-15

Postby MIG29pilot » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:47 pm

This is another incentive for me to learn Russian.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:26 pm

MIG29pilot wrote in Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:47 pm:This is another incentive for me to learn Russian.


Well, there is other ways, too - but it's only for people who thinks and tries to do something prior asking others. And, of course, instead of demanding.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:09 pm

vitos wrote:Most of questions was with canvas - weird wiki of "King Arthur said it shall be done in next year" style, and not normal examples. I wasted day to find out how to rotate objects around point what I mean, not of what that thing mean. Some standard way is existed, surrosedly, but it does not work, so You need to find way that works by "push and see" - not clear examples of rotation about just dot is presented.

BTW, in that canvas You just cant create list and add to it something at runtime - seems to be. Not examples. While it's one of most needed options with radars and maps. And attempts to make some sublayer radar and map to make everyone use it presented - which for sure will not do at most of cases - instead of making normal examples to help others really. And so, and so.

Regarding your canvas related comments: pretty much most of those issues/questions could have been easily posed/discussed on the forum, and we could have provided concrete/up to date examples for stuff that you apparently failed to figure out (referring to the misconception that you cannot add "lists" of stuff at run-time, which happens to be exactly what MapStructure and even the Avidyne Entegra R9 code is doing all the time).

Quite frankly, your work is -as usual- astounding, but your attitude makes it unnecessarily difficult for you to accomplish these things - especially because you can see in many places that Canvas is exceptionally well-supported, including not just tutorials, references, examples and code snippets but also 1:1 support, including even tailored tutorials.

Even if you didn't want to ask me for support, others could have surely provided exactly what you were looking for, probably within a few minutes. So no need to complain about the quality, or lack of, Canvas related docs.

A single posting in the Canvas forum could have answered tons of questions, and we could have posted code snippets, too. But given the attitude you are showing above, I am not sure how many Nasal/Canvas experts are too eager to help in response to such ill-informed statements. :roll:

PS: The whole Canvas/Radar issue is extensively well-covered on the forum AND the wiki, including even working code snippets and references to MapStructure (which you are apparently not even using given your comments above?).

http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_Radar
Image
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:52 pm

Hooray wrote in Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:09 pm:PS: The whole Canvas/Radar issue is extensively well-covered on the forum AND the wiki, including even working code snippets and references to MapStructure (which you are apparently not even using given your comments above?).


Could You just answer exact question and bring a lines of code which allows to create numbered list of canvas objects, adding to that list in runtime, deleting from it, and something as "foreach" construction for that - not at some "MapStructure", but at canvas?

Actually I do not need it already anyway, but just wondering if someone could make work right there, instead of providing me some ... as

Files are now automatically loaded. The function you changed is just a "self-test", but it demonstrates how to actually "use" a new layer. You can also refer to $FG_ROOT/gui/dialogs/map-canvas.xml for another example. I'd suggest to modify that file to use/test your new layer there. You will probably want to default it to visible:1 or add a corresponding checkbox (refer to the other layers/checkboxes as example)


You would then open the Map (Canvas) dialog via the EQUIPMENT menu to see your layer at work.
Using that method, will also allow you to easily reload the dialog via the DEBUG menu.
However, the layer itself cannot currently be reloaded (yet).

— Hooray (Sun Jun 22). Re: Get objects to show up on Map/Radar.


and

diff --git a/Nasal/canvas/map/DEMO.lcontroller b/Nasal/canvas/map/DEMO.lcontroller
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..c8ea442
--- /dev/null
+++ b/Nasal/canvas/map/DEMO.lcontroller
@@ -0,0 +1,45 @@
+# See: http://wiki.flightgear.org/MapStructure
+# Class things:
+var name = 'DEMO';
+var parents = [SymbolLayer.Controller];
+var __self__ = caller(0)[0];
+SymbolLayer.Controller.add(name, __self__);
+SymbolLayer.add(name, {
+ parents: [MultiSymbolLayer],
+ type: name, # Symbol type
+ df_controller: __self__, # controller to use by default -- this one
+ df_style: {},
+});
+var new = func(layer) {
+ var m = {
+ parents: [__self__],
+ layer: layer,
+ map: layer.map,


and other ... as that, while answer at question is not presented at page, and it's not quite sure if it will be found on next level of search?

Rhetorical question.

And yes, I do no use some new and new layers which not provides anything instead of fps waste. And thing is called "wiki", not "posting quotes and patches".

Look - I do what I said. As I said "model of Russian plane" - it's model with instruction at Russian, since that real plane never ever really had any English instruction, and will not. As You said "wiki" - it's gotta be wiki, not ... You called it.

You said "supported", not me. I said - it's not, instead I would find these answers already. You may see my things works. Not "will work tomorrow", but works today. Just try to look on what You do from that side, and You will see that You said "supported", but provide ... instead of support - so do lie actually. That's how it looks from my side, and I do not intent to ask help from liar.

As of me - I never said my model is supported. I said that I made it for myself, but You could try to fly it if You are smart and respectful enough.
Last edited by vitos on Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:19 pm

lol, see the history of the wiki article (or even just the screen shot): those are proof that this worked already 2 years ago - and the whole point of MapStructure is exactly what you are asking for now: adding dynamic lists (vectors in Nasal) to a layer without wasting performance.

I am sorry for your attitude, but you are asking for the solution to "1+1", and fail to recognize that we need to cover addition first.

Honestly, MapStructure has been solving issues for the last two years that you don't even understood you were having (or going to have shortly), especially when it comes to performance and efficiency (like your questions are now proving).

PS: MapStructure is Canvas, and it is all about what you are specifically interested in, completely unrelated any particular use case.

(anyway, feel free to post a link to your code so that we can take a look)
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