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Su-15

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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:03 pm

I just don't want to be responsible of cowork in which some part is not working with common fail in result. So I will not participate in something looking weak.

We are very different. When You thinking about some work, You are thinking about how good page in wiki will look - don't know why. I am thinking about what final user will see when he finally will start simulator.

You are thinking in terms of decades, I suppose. You are awaiting that user don't know when. I need result now. Immediately.

Nah, if I had free decades then most probably I would start own simulator from blank page.
Last edited by vitos on Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:21 pm

I dunno.

I fundamentally believe in doing things and in enabling others to help doing. Once you prototype something such that it works - no matter how flawed the approach, you can typically convince people to help you out. Once a project builds that kind of momentum, it becomes interesting, and then it tends to find the help it needs - and you can replace the prototypes against proper solutions during the process.

I prefer to assemble a team where different abilities and strengths combine over learning to do everything myself - because a good team will always achieve more.

See, if I manage to teach someone how to e.g. design effects, it cascades from there. He can teach others, and suddenly there are many different people doing it.

I'm not focusing my efforts on the end users - I'm focusing my efforts on the people who contribute. See, I don't really want anyone to fire up FG and say 'there's nothing more to do here' - I want people to fire up FG and realize they can make it better.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:22 pm

With that approach You'll end up making something not working intentionally. I am doing my best, and trying to make others do theirs.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:30 pm

Not really - I just make stuff available that's not perfect yet. And rather help to enable people to make it perfect. It's how Open Source development works.

Case in point - we initially had a Shuttle model without a landing gear - now we have a very gifted 3d modeler aboard who has helped out with many other things in addition and is excited to help make it all fly.

Other case in point - after laying the groundwork for regional and procedural terrain texturing and doing some regions myself, it turns out we have someone (Gilberto) who does this much better than I could - so do you honestly think I mind? I open a good bottle of wine and congratulate myself that I've managed to enable someone to do what he's good at doing - by paving the way in a less perfect manner.

Which is why I am confident I will see the stage where FG also supports Apollo missions. If you build momentum, if things start to get interesting and exciting, help usually comes.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:40 pm

Don't tell me 'bout that. I paved a way three times at least, and You are one of ones who stepped on it, as on my efforts.

"Led Zeppelin - Trampled Under Foot".

All You said is just self propaganda. You actions tells about You much better than Your words.

You did not ask to join into "Vostok" project, which You had accounted canceled with all that scandal, and did not tried to reanimate it without me. You had started own one, used my efforts as stage. So, on place of Your coworkers I would think hard about what they doing.

Or maybe they are just same as You, and will push You out same way on first opportunity, trying to reach do not know what - just because they was brought up wrong way.
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Re: Su-15

Postby legoboyvdlp » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:17 pm

This. Is. Funny.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:29 am

All You said is just self propaganda. You actions tells about You much better than Your words.


I would certainly hope that my actions speak very load.

* I've coded Earthview so that there's something to see from orbit

* I've adapted the ALS shader family to explicitly care for high altitude effects better

* I've been active asking people on the mailing list to remove the altitude restrictions we initially had which prevented orbits above 150 km

* I've done some promotion for Vostok-1 on the FG webpage

So yeah, I've really done all I could to step into your way.

(Um, yeah - you'll have a really hard time objectively arguing that I didn't support this...)

You did not ask to join into "Vostok" project


Suffice to say, I didn't know much JSBSim by then, and hardly any 3d modeling (the last still being true now) - so I helped out where my areas of expertise were, see above. You'd think the ability to render a photorealistic planet from orbit is sort of useful, but you've found a way to convince yourself that this just stalls your true plan as well.

You had started own one, used my efforts as stage.


You're flattering yourself - there's very little of Vostok which is actually used for the Shuttle - just about the 2-body orbital dynamics, some sounds and a parachute - all in all perhaps 1% of the total content. And the 2-body orbital dynamics turns out to be not accurate enough, so I'm phasing this code out in favour of numerical trajectory estimators which can take into account residual friction and non-pointmass gravity.

And as for different flight dynamics for different stages - you're basically crediting yourself for the invention of the 'if'-statement here :-) It's fairly obvious that <switch> is an 'if'-statement, and trust me - any coder would have worked out how to use it in a heartbeat without your help.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:10 pm

it still is quite an accomplishment for a non-coder ...
But "scripted AI objects" have nothing to do with Thorsten or myself, so vitos does not need to deal with any of us to contribute to that or adapt his own code accordingly.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:55 pm

Update: waring station and fictional "R8-S" active radar missile for its checking. Station gives warning tones on radars of plane and missile detection, and approximate azimuth on radar.

Image

Image

If You ever wondered why FG is not leading simulator at planet - it's because leading role in it has not work, but motivational speeches, while most of people still looks not on speeches, but on work results.

Most of efforts here goes not on deeds, but on polite - or not polite -"King Of The Hill" play.

I will not participate in that. I just do what I am interested in, and do not care about players of such games.

Just look on what I made first. I took abandoned model of other guy, who left it because of some reasons, and polished it to state when it became model of month. It could became model of year, though, but not with such people.

It was improved radically. I made, say, ten times more than him, but I was not removed his name - Lee Elliott, why not. I can also name Yurik and Specter from Russian forum who helped me with advices, and AndersG from FG IRC, conversations with whom was more or less productive. Name of Elliott is still in front of mine at wiki, docs, anywhere. I kept all his what I could not make better at time - something I could make at same level to call model mine only too.

And only then I started my own models - completely different.

Then look on what You - I mean whole community here - did. You had four years - time comparable with FG existance time - to make something as I made, and did't.

What interest I could have in collaboration with You? You will not continue anything of what I done really. You will do anything to forget my name as fast as possible. So for You it would lead to Your projects going, while for me it would end up as if I never existed. Look, are You seriously thinking what someone smart enough to work faster than You is so dumb to participate in something as that? Yeah?

I did not heard some proposal of real coworking with equal rights in these four years. Just proposals to fix something, "work on me for free". You are making own projects based on mine ideas without mentioning me, swearing me, and proposing me to join in these projects as some simple worker instead.

Still, then I continuing to try to give something to You, You are trying not just to take it, but make me work. Instead of looking at that, just at file, You are trying to send me to someone as worker, as if I would had need in that - You are just trying to make me do what You want.

You do not care about our result. You do care about Yours. You do care about making people do what You want, and that's only result You are interested in really. Thats why it all going so slow and wrong - anyone smart here tries to do less than others while making others do more than him and still be called leader, while more smart people just quit it.

So I am quite sure You are not my company. Yet, or never - it's not my problem.

I am alone, and I am doing as that. And what I do write here I do write not for You, but for someone who will fly my model - to make him or her know what to do and what not to. I just know that finally or whole project will die, or only normal people will left. Since everything grows, and kids is not good fuel to stay in line with others really doing something, while older and smarter guys just will not collaborate that way.
Last edited by vitos on Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:00 pm

Why dont you just go somewhere else?
Sure, your plane is nice.
The MiG is a pleasure to fly.
But you are a simply put pain in the neck.
You refuse to work with anyone, yet you ask others to help you. As you yourself said, AndersG helped you on your project.
edit: removed personal attack after reconsidering what I wrote.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:07 pm

I do not ask any help. I made proposal to just take part of my work, make it common, and add own objects and effects there - it can handle anything and make it visible both for someone and anyone at mp who sharing that protocol and having same objects installed. Not one even opened file to look what it can.

It works already for missiles of my "Su". Plus it can, as shown higher, translate messages about targets visibility and missiles catches. More than enough for missiles pif-paf.

It works already. It's not page at wiki, it's working code. One "Su" can send missile at other - I mean not AI model, but model controlled by someone else - other can see it both at screen and at warner, and finally have catch with it, with message about that and lamp about that. Not one else here ever made it yet. If You want to change missiles for flowers it's not problem - just add it, and call functions with it instead of missiles.

And what I hear?

P,S, About AndersG - conversations with him was more or less productive five years ago. "MiG" is five years old model, and still only one at stable version having breakable stuff in realistic degree.

Just because I do not make promises. I do things that works.

And why I am not going somewhere else - because I am doing what I planned to do to the point I planned to.
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Re: Su-15

Postby CaptB » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:08 pm

Can we just focus on our work instead of those dramas, we can all live in peace :)
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Re: Su-15

Postby MIG29pilot » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:39 pm

I second this petition
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:43 pm

As You may see, by checking messages dates, making that protocol took me less that week. I am focused well enough.

BTW, "Russians harness long, but riding fast." - Russian proverb. Keep it in mind.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Thorsten » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:32 am

It works already. It's not page at wiki, it's working code. One "Su" can send missile at other - I mean not AI model, but model controlled by someone else - other can see it both at screen and at warner, and finally have catch with it, with message about that and lamp about that. Not one else here ever made it yet.


The F-14b had working Sidewinder missiles (also over MP) years ago. Just please stop pretending you're the only one who can get things done here.

Then look on what You - I mean whole community here - did. You had four years - time comparable with FG existance time - to make something as I made, and did't.


Yeah - instead we (aka various teams of 'the community') made plenty of much better things.

Look at the F-15 or the F-14b - same visuals as your Su-15, very detailed FDM , much better framerate. And it had operational missiles long ago. Look at the Shuttle - easily ten times more detailed than Vostok in the flight dynamics, avionics, orbital visualization, damage and failure modeling - you name it - and still being developed further. Look at the C-172p - environment sounds in sync with the weather system, raindrops visibly and audibly splashing against the windshield...

And that's before considering all the non-aircraft work for FG.

Just because you think what you do is the most interesting thing doesn't mean everyone else thinks the same way. You're been producing some impressive models over the last years - but so have others.

You will not continue anything of what I done really. You will do anything to forget my name as fast as possible.


I guess someone actually fixed a few issues in the MiG-15 of late. As for forgetting your name - don't you think this is a tad paranoid? First, last time I checked it was still in the aircraft author tag. Second, it is still in the header of all files which were adapted from you. Third, one of the main reasons nobody touches your stuff is that people do remember you, respect your work and don't want to just change things without obtaining your consent first.

But also - believe it or not - your models are so unoptimized and vertex heavy, they're hard to use for most people. So they're not that interesting to pick up.
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