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Re: Su-15

Postby EnricoC » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:37 pm

Hello VITOS ,
First, I wish the whole world of FlightGear did you a long and warm applause for your work with the SU-15
Is the most beautiful plane exists at the time, is the best.
All manufacturers of aircraft FG, should bow down in front of this masterpiece.
It 'really complicated to fly this plane (as in reality) but it should be so in the simulator.
Vitos you made a masterpiece ..
I hope there will be other planes in your hangar.
The only courtesy that I ask is to have a manual in English for all procedures.
Or have a menu of autostart.
My compliments, yet.

Enrico
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Re: Su-15

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:39 pm

I second Enrico
I can't get this thing to go anywhere :(

IHCOL

I know Vitos you offered me private instructions if I bow not to share them. I just can't make such promise, when I am all for sharing my knowledge. I acquired it in FG for free, and feel responsible to transmit my little knowledge when I do have so.

:(
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:52 pm

I don't want anyone to bow down, but I want people to respect work of each other. I made an autostart at "MiG-15" model, made a detailed manual with screenshots and nice fonts. That took me some additional days, or maybe week even, still "MiG-15" was not as popular as it was deserved. With "Vostok-1" it was even worse - much more work, much less results. Close to zero, or even negative.

Look, You will not find manual of real Su-15 at internet. It was plane of high secrecy, and people related to it are not so much intent to share it with anyone still. So I do. I did not use original manual, reconstructed everything by common sources and feeling or real plane remains I sat in once, but I do know for sure that not one string of original manual was at English. Try to use Google translator and think. Maybe it would make that model - and country made original plane - treated as it deserves more.

Nah, anyway someone not smart enough to learn could not fly it. It takes off at 400km/h and lose gears at 500 - at maximum reheat it takes one second. When You finally land it You feel Yourself as it was real plane - tired. It's not funny at all. That model is for adults only. If there is one only, then that model is for that one only.

I made it more than two years, plus not less than two years which I gave to the community completely free, and I am having not a day for someone who do not want to spend a day to learn, but ask me to spend additional week to work instead. But, look - I do have another translation from Russian for You.

The Fisherman and the Golden Fish

There once lived an old man and his good-wife
On the shore of the deep blue ocean;
They lived in a tumble-down hovel
For thirty-three summers and winters.
The old man used to fish for his living,
And his wife spun yarn on her distaff.
He once cast his net in the ocean,
And pulled it up with mud from the bottom;
He again cast his net in the ocean,
And this time caught nothing but seaweed;
When he cast his net for the third time,
One fish was all that he landed,
No common fish, though, but a goldfish.
Now the goldfish began to implore him,
And it spoke like a real human being:
«Put me back, old man, into the ocean —
I will pay you a right royal ransom,
I wilt give you whatever you ask me.»
The old man was astonished and frightened —
He'd been fishing for thirty-three summers,
Bat had not heard of any fish talking.
So with care he untangled the goldfish
And tenderly said as he did so:
«God bless you, my dear little goldfish!
Thank you kindly, I don't want your ransom.
Go back to your home in the ocean,
And roam where you will without hindrance.»

To his wife the old fisherman hastened
To tell her about this great marvel.
«I caught only one fish this morning —
A goldfish it was, most uncommon;
It spoke like a Christian, and begged me
To put it back into the ocean,
And promised to pay a rich ransom,
To give me whatever I asked for.
But how could I ask for a ransom?
I released it without any payment.»
His wife started scolding her husband:
«Oh you simpleton! Oh yon great silly!
Couldn't make a mere fish pay a ransom!
You at least might have asked for a wash-tub -
For ours is all falling to pieces!»

The old man returned to the seashore,
Where the blue waves were frolicking lightly.
He called out aloud for the goldfish,
And the goldfish swam up and demanded:
«What is it, old man, you are wanting?»
With a bow, the old man said in answer:
«Forgive me, Your Majesty Goldfish!
My old woman has scolded me roundly—
Won't leave me alone for a minute,
She says that she wants a new wash-tub,
For ours is all falling to pieces.»
The goldfish murmured in answer:
«Do not worry, go home, God be with you —
Very well, you shall have a new wash-tub.»

To his wife the old fisherman hastened,
And behold — there it was, the new wash-tub.
But she scolded him louder than ever:
«Oh you simpleton! Oh you great silly!
To ask for a tub—a mere wash-tub!
What good can you get from a wash-tab?
Return to the goldfish, you silly,
Bow down low and ask for a cottage.»

Again he went back to the seashore,
And this time the blue sea was troubled.
He called out aloud for the goldfish,
And the goldfish swam up and demanded:
«What is it, old man, you are wanting?»
With a bow, the old man said in answer:
«Forgive me, Your Majesty Goldfish!
My old woman is angrier than ever,
Won't leave me alone for a minute—
The old scold says she wants a new cottage.»
The goldfish murmured in answer:
«Do not worry, go home, God be with you!
So be it! You'll have a new cottage!»
So back the old man turned his footsteps;
Not a sign did he see of his hovel.
In its place stood a new gabled cottage,
With a chimney of brick, newly whitewashed,
A fence with oak gates stood around it;
And there sat his wife at a window;
When she saw him, she scolded him roundly:
«Oh you simpleton! Oh you great silly!
To ask for no more than a cottage!
Go and bow to the goldfish, and tell it
That I'm tired of being a peasant,
That I want to be made a fine lady.»

The old man then returned to the seashore,
Where the ocean was restlessly foaming,
He called out aloud for the goldfish.
The goldfish swam up and demanded:
«What is it, old man, you are wanting?»
With a bow, the old man said in answer:
«Forgive me, Your Majesty Goldfish!
My old woman is madder than ever,
She gives me no rest for a second,
Says she's tired of being a peasant,
And wants to be made a fine lady.»
The goldfish murmured in answer:
«Do not worry, go home, God be with you.»

To his wife the old fisherman hastened,
And what did he see? — a tall mansion;
On its white marble stairs — his old woman.
She was wearing a rich sable jacket,
And s head-dress, in gold all embroidered;
Her neck was with pearls heavy laden;
She wore golden rings on her fingers;
She was shod in the softest red leather;
Zealous servants bowed meekly before her,
As she cuffed them and rated them roundly.
The old man then approached his wife, saying.
«Greetings, your ladyship, greetings, fine lady!
Now I hope that your soul is contented!»
She angrily bade him be silent
And sent him to serve in the stables.

First a week slowly passed, then another,
The old woman grew prouder than ever.
One morning she sent for her husband,
And said: «Bow to the goldfish and tell it
I am tired of being a lady,
And I want to be made a Tsaritsa.»
Her husband implored her in terror,
Saying: «Woman—you've surely gone crazy!
You can't even talk like a lady!
You'd be mocked at all over the kingdom!
His old woman grew madder than ever,
Slapped his face and then shouted in passion:
«How dare you, muzhik, stand and argue,
Stand and argue with me, a fine lady?
Go at once — if you don't, then I warn you,
You'll be dragged to the shore, willy-nilly.»

The old man went down to the seashore
(The ocean was swollen and sullen).
He called out aloud for the goldfish,
And the goldfish swam up and demanded:
«What is it, old man, yon are wanting?»
With a bow, the old man said in answer:
«Forgive me, Your Majesty Goldfish!
Again my old woman's gone crazy!
Now she's tired of being a lady!
She wants to be made a Tsaritsa.
The goldfish murmured in answer:
Do not worry, go home, God be with you!
Very well! She shall be a Tsaritsa!»

To his wife the old fisherman hastened,
And what did he see? A grand palace;
In the palace he saw his old woman,
At the table she sat, a Tsaritsa,
Attended by nobles and boyards;
They were pouring choice wines in her goblet,
She was nibbling sweet gingerbread wafers;
Around her, grim guards stood in silence,
With halberds upon their broad shoulders.
The old man was aghast when he saw this,
He bowed to her feet and said humbly:
«Greetings, Oh mighty Tsaritsa!
Now I hope that your soul is contented!»
But she gave not a glance at her husband —
She ordered him thrust from her presence.
The boyards and nobles all hastened
And drove him with blows from the chamber;
The guards at the door waved their halberds
And threatened to cut him to pieces.
All the people derided him, saying.
«Serves you right, now, you ill-bred old fellow.
You churl—this will teach you a lesson,
To keep to your station in future!»

First a week slowly passed, then another;
The old woman grew prouder than ever.
She sent for her husband one morning,
And her chamberlain haled him before her.
The old woman spoke thus to her husband:
«Go, bow to the goldfish, and tell it
That I'm tired of being Tsaritsa,
Of the seas I want to be mistress,
With my home in the blue ocean waters;
The goldfish I want for my servant
To do my commands and my errands.»

The old man durst not contradict her,
Nor open his lips to make answer.
He sadly set out for the seashore.
A tempest raged over the ocean,
Its waters were swollen and angry,
Its billows were boiling with fury.
He called out aloud for the goldfish.
The goldfish swam up and demanded:
«What is it, old man, you are wanting?»
With a bow, the old man said in answer;
«Forgive me, Your Majesty Goldfish!
What shall I do with my cursed old woman?
She is tired of being Tsaritsa,
Of the seas she now wants to be mistress,
With her home in the blue ocean waters;
She wants you to be her own servant,
To do her commands and her errands.»
Not a word spoke the goldfish in answer,
It just swished its tail, and in silence
Disappeared in the depths of the ocean.
He waited in vain for an answer,
And at last turned his steps to the palace;
And behold — there again stood his hovel;
On the doorstep sat his old woman,
With the same broken wash-tab before her.

Alexander Pushkin, 14 of October 1833
Translated by Irina Zheleznova, 1986
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Re: Su-15

Postby Andreas » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:34 am

1. This is a great plane! Thank you vitos for your contribution. I really like the style of your 3D modelling. In general, I think the level of detail is just a question of craftmanship and how much time is to be invested, but knowing *how* detailled it should be to look realistic and make *that* level of detail consistent throughout the whole project - that's a art form, and you're really good at that.

2. I missed the discussion before and I think it's a bad thing that I can cannot go back to find out what happened. I can only guess that some of vitos' emotional remarks have been deleted, which I think would be inappropriate, because the amount of work he has given to the community entitles him to discuss the emotional aspects of his contributions (unless he insulted anyone, of course) inside the thread he started himself. Where else is he gonna do it?

3. That being said - what's going on, vitos? The best thing that could happen to the community *and* to you is that many pilots fly the Su-15, enjoying the result of all the hard work and putting it to good use. Try to see it from my perspective: Even I - who is a fan of USSR aircraft, of your MiG-15 and your modelling style - walk into this forum, find a plane that looks even better than the MiG, and I can't fly it. Instead of getting helpful instructions, I feel like being forced to show some 'guts' to fly it or appreciation to the plane, to your work or even the country it came from. Looks like I'm paying for some flightgear conflict way in the past that I even don't know about. (And given your discussion manners in recent times, I doubt that you were completely innocent back then). You got to admit that from this point of view this is a weird situation.

Your work on the Su-15 is a very generous gift to the community, it should only take a little more generousity to make peace with the past. There is gratitude and respect coming your way, lean back and let it shine on you.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:17 am

Andreas wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:34 am:Your work on the Su-15 is a very generous gift to the community, it should only take a little more generousity to make peace with the past. There is gratitude and respect coming your way, lean back and let it shine on you.


It's not a gift, but a test. As two previous models - "MiG-15" and "Vostok-1" was. And all these tests was failed.

That, final one, was needed only to have three dots in a row to be sure its row.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Michat » Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:08 pm

Howdy FG'ers. Ciao Vitos.

First I wish to congratulate for your work, for the state of art crafts plenty of russian style taste that you have made .


I can't find a better definition for Su-15 as the one you told "When You finally land it You feel Yourself as it was real plane - tired."

Even If I can't not fly your model due a very bad hardware, I feel totally identified with your definition, getting remembers when I was 2nd test pilot of the F5E Tiger Fighter in company of dear JAPANz Zexe Pilot. Those were good times 6 -7 years ago in YAYE-KHAF.

Having account the category/type of the plane, I wish to know how many hours can you estimate that a pilot needs to get SU-15 certification FG for example you as reference.

As a FG lover of russian aircrafts, I get in love with the RU models years ago by the other logic or the RU aircrafts designs.

For newbies I'll recommend training sessions with semi acrobathic traineer yak 53 http://www.flightgear.ru/yak-53 the panel is simple but it contains the basements of the russian aircrafts , then the pilot can step beyond others RU pure models.

YAK-53 FG certification 200 hrs. + 200 hrs in order to feel this heart beat, pure blood. +100 in order to realize that avionics talk each others. +50 to understand needles symphony. +400hrs all seasons in order to understand what really I have under control. Testing high performance, bad performance, high alt, low alt pressure. Fuel. It is simple but complex system same time. :roll: I'm allways advertising YAK-53.

Let me guess Vitos 2500 hrs. ? + previous russian F jet experience.


I like so much to have some pure aircrafts in FG, hard to fly with essential feeling of the danger and risk to fly. When FP is filled pilots must have clear all info. Any mistake counts. That what's training about aircraft certification in FG.


Best regards.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:22 pm

Michat wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:08 pm:I wish to know how many hours can you estimate that a pilot needs to get SU-15 certification FG for example you as reference.


I just do not know. At maximum reheat, which is normal regime for interceptor flight, it can fly only half of hour. So it takes not number of hours, but number of correct liftoffs, landings, and maximum altitude climbings.

And it's just model.

In reality someone could be certified after 80 flights and 53 hours of flights of real Su-15. To learn someone would need to be military pilot not lower than of second class - with not less than 500 hours of flights on any types of crafts. Median was 150-200 hours per year at that era, so, not less than third of year of regular flights to learn officially, and not less than two years of active flying prior it.

As of my experience - I never accounted it before. Tracker says ~400 hours, but much more was offline. Plus it was, say, special - someone who could fly "Su-15" would check it by flying without stability automation.

Michat wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:08 pm:For newbies I'll recommend training sessions with semi acrobathic traineer yak 53


Yes, it's pretty well model, as others at Russian hangar. Difference is in people mostly - at Russia more people who would want to fly really but could not are presented. So Russian models may be of same level visually in common, but these are much more realistic.

As I know, P-51 of modern FG is of similar quality in means of flight model - it would be useful to fly it too. By the way, 10 of that was used in USSR, at war, but not at front line - it was, as Su-15, high altitude plane, while most of fight was at lower altitudes.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:24 pm

vitos wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:17 am:It's not a gift, but a test. As two previous models - "MiG-15" and "Vostok-1" was. And all these tests was failed.


well, you could be wondering about all the resistance you're seeing or you could look at your own actions and words and ask yourself if maybe you're are the "wrong-way-driver", here and not everybody else headed towards you ...
I don't think this has to do with the quality of your work, but with the way you're treating people around here, and the way you expect people to agree with your points and comply with your requests.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:45 pm

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:24 pm:you're are the "wrong-way-driver"


There was not other way presented.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:08 pm

actually, it was, you only need to watch other contributors, and emulate their behavior/interaction with each other to learn how bootstrapping new efforts, and temporary collaboration, actually does work fairly well - even among people who may regularly be involved in debates/clashes (e.g. think Thorsten and myself).

I think you summed up the problem in your last PM pretty well - which I won't quote here, unless you are ok with it - but basically, don't expect to be the "leader", without also offering to get involved in other efforts, and accepting leadership from others as well.

We get to see that this is not a problem specific to your efforts though - even the space shuttle developers are currently facing this dilemma of someone more more interested in physics/FDM stuff taking their work, without any mutual collaboration being visible for the time being.

However, I think there's a "gradient" of skills needed when it comes to aircraft development (research, texturing, 3D modeling, FDM, systems modeling, Nasal scripting, effects/GLSL, C++) and usually it's those who are involved in the the more complex/difficult parts (those with a steep learning curve) of an effort that get to be the leaders/mentors of others doing less fancy stuff. And then there's momentum and inertia, i.e. in terms of manpower interested/motivated and available to get involved in some way. Unfortunately, there's only a really small number of people around here who understand how momentum can be grown, and "harvested", over time - which however is an absolute necessity unless you've got plenty of time and skills/expertise on your hands to make it all happen on your own (i.e. "lone wolf" mode).

The latter seems to apply to some "power contributors" (for the lack of a better term) around here, some either have tons of time on their hands (usual students/freshmen), or tons of professional expertise to get by with the degree of spare time they're able/willing to dedicate to FlightGear (I think this applies to Thorsten, whose track record and involvement is kinda unprecedented around here, despite apparently not being a teenager who's attending high school :mrgreen: )
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:24 pm

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:08 pm:how momentum can be grown, and "harvested"


Dude, You could try to do that all Your life, and die still not harvesting it. To me it all is much easier - could You, conversing with me for so long time, just, for example, fix sounds of "MiG-15", which was broken when someone choosed to switch sim to 22khz mono sounds mode, or not. It would take much lesser time to do than all of Your words, and not some special skills are needed - it's obvious thing.

Just to prove that You are right and some "harvesting" works.

You - just You - are could not, and others, some of who said model is good, too - in five years. Me, in opposition, took that model with hole trough whole side and without instrumentation, and brought it to state it became craft of month - without forgotting original author, who approved it.

Some things of that GPL model, as breakable gears, seems to be useful, and could add realism to many models. Not one even asked me how it could be implemented, and not one ever took it. Some other things, as what these gears are breakable too easy, could be fixed by changing single one constant - not one ever did that even after I went off comunity with "Vostok-1" crack and smack.

I just do know how much that "harvesting" works, while You never did try to do what You are recommending to others really.

So don't tell me what I should do, and I will not tell You where You should go.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:00 pm

Like I said earlier, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say - so I apologize in advance if my response seems unwarranted ... I am increasingly finding myself having to guess what you are trying to tell us here.

I do agree that we are spending way too much time talking with each other - but for some reason, threads where you (and a few others ...) are involved, tend to turn out this way - and it's usually the same people trying to explain to others how to align themselves within the constraints of the project, while still having enough leeway to make progress.

Honestly, let's face it, there are certain contributors who are facing the exact same issues, but who are making significant progress on a permanent basis.

And to be honest, I am not sure why I am asked now to fix some sound issue of the Mig15, while you are telling me it's "an obvious thing".
Regarding the mono/stereo transition, I am aware of that change, and that it did involve a few aircraft - as far as I remember, "official" (fgaddon) aircraft/sounds were converted using a script that is to be found in the archives of the devel list.
So if you are asking others to handle that for you, I'd suggest to start a new thread - or even better, start maintaining a todo list/roadmap on the wiki, so that others can get involved.

Otherwise, you asking me to convert your sounds, is hardly a matter of "harvesting" momentum as far as I can see.

You keep making and re-iterating fairly pompous points about your work - and to be honest, I find it pathetic to keep doing that: It's been said more than once, that you belong to a fairly small group of extremely talented contributors, whose skills/contributions are almost unprecedented (especially when only counting non-team contributions). Then again, that's not the point of the whole exercise here - and you are even more unlikely to get others involved by behaving like you do.

I don't have the slightest bit of interest in picking up aircraft development - in fact, even if I should be totally bored, I'd be even more likely to tinker with effects and shaders, than doing GIMP/Blender3D stuff. And asking people, able to write Nasal code and patch/build SG/FG, to do audio/sound file conversion on behalf of you isn't exactly the best use of resources either - it's not unlike someone asking you to do liveries ... :mrgreen:

I don't think you actually understood the point I made about inertia and community momentum and how momentum can be "harvested" over time - then again, I am not sure I even understood most of your posting, so I'll leave it at that. I am thankful for some of your contributions, but at least in my eyes, those don't automagically entitle you to give us such a degree of attitude on the forum, while also telling us all the time that you've left the project long ago, and that you were really just conducting sociology tests by contributing/particpating and posting/behaving the way you did.

As far as I can tell, you are not really improving the/your situation at all - you're really just re-inforcing the impression others have got of you already, and now even newcomers who didn't knew you, will rememeber your tirades.
Last edited by Hooray on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:03 pm

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:00 pm:Like I said earlier, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say


Of course You are. Could You just show me some of Your latest work results, it does not matter if these are made in collaboration or not? I searched trough forum a bit and did not find any.
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Re: Su-15

Postby Hooray » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:10 pm

Sorry, I wasn't aware that this is a virtual pi**ing contest, but if you're interested in efforts/collaboration examples in which I've been involved, feel free to refer to the wiki, where I try to regularly update things, e.g. here are just a few canvas related efforts in which I've been involved:

http://wiki.flightgear.org/Scripted_AI_Objects
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_Radar
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_ND_Framework
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_MapStructure
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Canvas_Snippets

All of those represent collaboration among several contributors (e.g. Gijs, Hyde, Philosopher, Soitanen, artix, www2 etc), because I wasn't responsible for anything single-handedly at all.

You can find plenty of Nasal/C++ related examples, too - e.g.:
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Initializing_Nasal_early

I am not sure if this is helping you any though ... but yeah, you will have a hard time proving that I don't understand how collaboration or even bootstrapping new stuff works.
Please don't send support requests by PM, instead post your questions on the forum so that all users can contribute and benefit
Thanks & all the best,
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Re: Su-15

Postby vitos » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:18 pm

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:10 pm:Sorry, I wasn't aware that this is a virtual pi**ing contest


Not, I just needed to be sure what You did something. Previous guy who tried to put others at some places did not do a thing.

Hooray wrote in Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:10 pm:All of those represent collaboration among several contributors (e.g. Gijs, Hyde, Philosopher, Soitanen, artix, www2 etc), because I wasn't responsible for anything single-handedly at all.


Look, You are thinking that You had grown some mass. But at fact You was just maintainer. That mass was not enough to start any own project, and most probably will not.

Plus, these things You made are not a things You could fly. It's about flight.

By the way, are You flying something for time at FG multiplayer? Since, You know, there at MP some crazy guy somewhere at Germany, who does not fly a thing, but sits at some airport, demands others to follow his commands, and to "neglect" ones who do not follow it immediately.

I am just not interested in being that way.
Waste of time: too unprofitable for work, too exhausting for hobby.
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