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Where is the C130J ?

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby Hooray » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:33 pm

without meaning any offense, but is it even clear to everybody that you were involved in the Tom's original work, as wkitty42 alluded to ?
The point being, some people around here have a long history of blaming others (with topics like these often going on for weeks), until things settle down because the corresponding work wasn't even based on their own work :lol:
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby Thorsten » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:53 am

Thank you dear Alant for understanding and having enough neurons not to drool here as others do for the pleasure of creating hatred.


Please refrain from personal attacks - truth isn't always pleasant, but that's how it is, shooting the messenger isn't going to help you.

And those were the rules that were set on this forum in the first place.


1) Please show me where it says in the forum rules that to work on a plane on a private repository you have to contact the maintainer - it actually doesn't say this, you made it up.

2) What the forum rules say is completely irrelevant for what someone does on an external repository in the first place.

Open source is not anarchy contrary to what little believe or think Thortsen


Of course it is not - it is bound by GPL, and GPL contains no provision that states that people need to ask you or even contact you - that's your private rule you're trying to enforce over and over.

And as I've already stated - if someone works towards inclusion in FGAddon then the FG project rules say he needs to get in touch with the maintainer.

There are rules - they're just not what you want them to be, that's all. :D
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby helijah » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:01 pm

The GPL includes respect for authors and respect for authorship. THE RESPECT! Something you don't know. Everyone agrees to say it here, even if no one has the courage to tell you.
By extension the minimum is to contact the authors, even if it is not for a collaboration.

As for your allegations about people who would not want to contact me, by 2 or 3 people who like you are convinced that they know everything and are the science alone. The vast majority continue to contact me, to help and to make things evolve. Which is not your case! But spreading false information and rumours is in your habit anyway.
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby portreekid » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:13 pm

helijah wrote in Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:01 pm:The GPL includes respect for authors and respect for authorship. THE RESPECT! Something you don't know. Everyone agrees to say it here, even if no one has the courage to tell you.
By extension the minimum is to contact the authors, even if it is not for a collaboration.


The question was previously stated but I'm not sure if it was answered. Is it established, that we are actually talking about a fork or is a a mere phantom debate, as the C130J is not a derivative of helijahs work. That might help some of us judge the melee.
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:20 pm

the question i posed has not been answered... it almost seems as if it is being actively avoided by someone in particular :(
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby Thorsten » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:40 pm

The GPL includes respect for authors and respect for authorship. THE RESPECT!


Actually it does not - except in the broadest sense that copyright has to be respected - (you really might want to read the license and the FAQ...) - I challenge you to quote the part of the license where it says 'RESPECT'.

In particular the FAQ answers the question Does the GPL allow me to require that anyone who receives the software must pay me a fee and/or notify me?

The answer to the question is a clear and concise 'No.'

Nobody has to notify you when using the code, as this would make it non-free. Says the GPL FAQ, I'm merely quoting it - does the person who wrote it also 'create hatred'? Does the person who wrote the GPL license text?

Everyone agrees to say it here, even if no one has the courage to tell you.


Everyone (except the GNU license FAQ) agrees that people really have to notify you, but nobody has the courage to tell me?

That's... strange. Weird even.

Why are they afraid? Am I threatening people? Do I have the evil eye? What could I possibly do to them via the forum that wouldn't immediately get me up for moderation? I'm not even using harsh language (that was a reference to Alien 2 by the way... :mrgreen: ) So what do you believe makes peoples' courage fail so dramatically?

And - why would the GPL FAQ agree with me? Are they afraid of me as well over there?

The vast majority continue to contact me, to help and to make things evolve


That's good for you and basically their decision - however the vast majority of your posts in this forum is about people supposedly doing you injustice by not respecting you as you feel you deserve (with rants on how bad JSBSim is second in number) - so you don't really give the impression of being happy with what is going on.

as the C130J is not a derivative of helijahs work.


Well, if so - what can I say except that this raises the question how respectful it really is to claim someone else's work as one's own...
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby TheTom » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:59 am

Just dropping by as I was made aware of that topic. Currently I don't have really time available for doing anything related to FG. To make it clear, the C-130J is not derived from any other previous C-130. Yes, in the beginning of my development I used the FDM of helijah and copied in my model and Canvas, but that was only until I created my own FDM (still far from complete and accurate, but closer to the real performance) with JSBSim. So in the current state is only my work. I will see if I can find a more current state (and the blender model) than in the two git repositories mentioned before and push it to a more accessible place. Otherwise I unfortunately don't have any time right now to put more effort into it.
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby tdammers » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:19 pm

Let me chip in here on the GPL matter, as a software developer of 30 years, and a long-time open-source / free-software contributor and maintainer.

The basic principle of all open-source / free-software licensing is that you, the original developer, are allowing anyone, without discrimination, to pretty much do whatever they want with your code, with very few exceptions. Specifically, in order to qualify as open source / free software AT ALL, you must grant the "four freedoms" (the "open source" definition states it in different, more elaborate terms, but they boil down to the same thing):

- the freedom to use
- the freedom to inspect
- the freedom to modify
- the freedom to share (both in modified and unmodified form)

The moment you restrict any of these freedoms in any way, the software ceases to be open source / free software. If you demand that people notify you of changes, then they are no longer free to modify, and thus the software is no longer open-source / free software.

There are some restrictions that you CAN put up, and those restrictions are the main reasons why many different open source licenses exist:

- forbidding misrepresentation (i.e., the license doesn't need to allow people to misrepresent your work as theirs)
- forbidding non-free redistribution (i.e., the license can mandate that copies and derived works must only be distributed under an equally free license)
- forbidding re-licensing (extending on the above)
- forbidding endorsement (i.e., the license can say that you must not make it look as if you, the author, endorse a product built with your code)
- forbidding patent claims (i.e., the license can say that by accepting the license, you agree to not file patent claims against its authors)

But you cannot forbid modifications, or require prior notice. If it's under GPL, then I can take it, and modify it in any way I see fit, as long as I keep the original copyright notice, and keep all redistributions, including my own changes, under the same or newer license. I don't have to tell the original author about it.

That's the legal side. Morally, it's still fine, but it's courteous to give the original developer a heads-up, and it's often a good idea to seek collaboration, because as long as the two of you get along, this is just so much more efficient. But it's not required, just a smart thing to do, all else being equal.
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby Thorsten » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:50 am

@helijah:

For someone who made 'respect' the main theme here, your silence at this point is a bit odd. We've established that you kicked off the whole debate by mistaking someone else's work for yours, during the debate you made one false claim about forum rules and another false claim about the GPL - at this point, I believe the respectful thing to do would be to 1) acknoweldge that you've been wrong and 2) issue a short 'I am sorry' to the author whose work you claimed as your own.

It would be even nicer if you had come up on your own with the idea - but, well, there's an opportunity to show respect to this community still. :D
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby helijah » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:33 pm

tdammers wrote in Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:19 pm:That's the legal side. Morally, it's still fine, but it's courteous to give the original developer a heads-up, and it's often a good idea to seek collaboration, because as long as the two of you get along, this is just so much more efficient. But it's not required, just a smart thing to do, all else being equal.


Thorsten : And that's just what I was pointing out. In no way do I impose or oblige anything. It is only the ridiculous words of unscrupulous people who like to throw hatred and confusion here, because it is their only talent.

And if I don't answer here it's because I come less and less often on this forum because in any case if you don't agree with some people then you are rejected by these people. I prefer to continue to bring a lot to FG.

Personally I have NEVER created a model that already exists out of respect for the authors. Except at their express request. It is a question of morality and respect. But since it doesn't bother anyone maybe I should redo all the models I find bad and create lots of duplicates.
Have you ever heard me making crtictics about the hundreds of 3D objects used to create airports or urban areas (group of houses, street lamps, static planes etc...) which nevertheless come from my work and which are used a little everywhere on FG. No because it's not useful. But as always, someone here distorts what is said in order to create disputes and bring hatred to a place where the most important people are the users and not the creators.
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby portreekid » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:26 pm

My master in my apprenticeship always said that you have to earn respect. Respect is nothing you can demand. The cultural differences are always rather present. The tone in most open source projects is rather intimidating. One reason I stay away from collaboration. Too much people thinking they are entitled
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:31 am

And that's just what I was pointing out.


As it turns out, you were calling a model that wasn't created by you your own creation and called it 'disrespectful' that you weren't notified about it, citing a non-existing forum rule and a non-existing GPL provision as your support.

You may of course be of the opinion that you've been wronged in some way here, or that you're entitled to messages whenever people work on something you've ever worked - it's a free forum and you can express your opinion - it just looks a bit conceited to the rest of the world, and you have to expect that the rest of the world doesn't accept your reasoning and tells you that.

In no way do I impose or oblige anything.


You try to - of course you don't succeed because there's no basis to your claims.

Personally I have NEVER created a model that already exists out of respect for the authors.


You may impose upon yourself whatever rules you fancy - just don't expect the rest of the world to follow.

someone here distorts what is said in order to create disputes and bring hatred to a place where the most important people are the users and not the creators


You may also describe your fantasies about what is happening here - just don't expect the rest of the world to follow.

P.S.: I still think you owe an apology here - you seem to have trouble respecting others sufficiently to do that it seems....
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Re: Where is the C130J ?

Postby tdammers » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:34 am

helijah wrote in Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:33 pm:
tdammers wrote in Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:19 pm:That's the legal side. Morally, it's still fine, but it's courteous to give the original developer a heads-up, and it's often a good idea to seek collaboration, because as long as the two of you get along, this is just so much more efficient. But it's not required, just a smart thing to do, all else being equal.


Thorsten : And that's just what I was pointing out. In no way do I impose or oblige anything. It is only the ridiculous words of unscrupulous people who like to throw hatred and confusion here, because it is their only talent.

And if I don't answer here it's because I come less and less often on this forum because in any case if you don't agree with some people then you are rejected by these people. I prefer to continue to bring a lot to FG.

Personally I have NEVER created a model that already exists out of respect for the authors. Except at their express request. It is a question of morality and respect. But since it doesn't bother anyone maybe I should redo all the models I find bad and create lots of duplicates.
Have you ever heard me making crtictics about the hundreds of 3D objects used to create airports or urban areas (group of houses, street lamps, static planes etc...) which nevertheless come from my work and which are used a little everywhere on FG. No because it's not useful. But as always, someone here distorts what is said in order to create disputes and bring hatred to a place where the most important people are the users and not the creators.


None of this is relevant for this discussion.

The subject matter is quite simple.

1. You created an aircraft model (the original C130, presumably an H series).
2. You explicitly allowed anyone to use, inspect, modify, and redistribute (in modified or unmodified form) your work without any restrictions except that it must be under the same license terms as the original license. You did this by releasing your work under GPL 2.0.
3. Someone else also created an aircraft model (another C130, though the J series), and presumably your work was somehow involved in the creation. The GPL 2.0 license, chosen by you, explicitly allows this.
4. You claim that, even though you have explicitly allowed it, actually doing this is somehow disrespectful or immoral, and that, despite you having granted the permission explicitly already, people who wish to take you up on it should first ask for your permission.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. If you don't want to grant people a blanket permission to modify your work as they see fit, then don't grant that permission. But if you do grant the permission, don't come whining when people do what you explicitly allowed them to do.

And if this is all due to a misunderstanding of what GPL 2.0 entails: I'm still sorry, because that's on you - if you release software under a license that you don't understand, that's your own fault, you should have made sure you understand the license you're granting, or pick a different one.

Or, to put it in absolutely unambiguous terms:

You explicitly allowed people to take your work and do whatever they want with it (except claim your work as theirs, or represent their work as yours, or redistribute your work under a different license); you cannot demand that people ask for permission, because you already gave it.
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