Board index FlightGear Development Aircraft

FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:22 pm

Image
In my research on the avionics of the FIAT G91R I finally found the model of doppler radar used on board the aircraft. It was the Bendix DRA-12, a Doppler navigation radar which allowed an accuracy of 0.5%. The article, which I have added to the cover, was extracted from Flying Magazine June 1963 Page 32.
The article is available in complete form at the following link (go to page 32)
http://books.google.it/books?id=GUSqNw60iJkC&lpg=PA32&ots=GWKpbf63SH&dq=Bendix%20dra%2012a%20doppler%20manual&hl=it&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=Bendix%20dra%2012a%20doppler%20manual&f=false

This is a picture of the control panel Bendix doppler, mounted on the G91:
Image


This is a picture of the computer Bendix CPA-24 mounted on various passenger aircraft, primarily for transatlantic routes:
Image

The manual Bendix DRA-12 is unfortunately only on ebay, it would be helpful if someone could find and send it in digital format!

I would like to create a simulation of the system DRA-12, and together with electromechanical computer PHI Mk3 (of which I only found the manual MK2). Bendix at the time (around 1963) made also the computer (transistorized) CPA-24 often mounted on the 707 (later also on the early 747) or the DC8 for the Atlantic routes.

I always hope that some lovers of avionics can help me, I think it is very interesting to use these tools to complete the magnificent 707, the G91 and other aircraft that have used the Doppler navigation systems.

There is to be noted that these instruments were, for the time (1960-1970), really excellent. The precision allowed to make a transatlantic flight with a precision of 0.5% at a cost of $ 16,000 + 11,000 (if one adds the spare drive). In 1960 26.000 $ was the price of a small plane!
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:17 pm

Image

Looking at the Flight Manual FIAT G91 could not understand the function of small studs on the panels of the avionic equipment installed in the cabin.
Coincidentally, reading the manual of the B-57 I found an illustration explaining the function of these strange studs. Looking at the figure, the stud was painted in yellow and is the number (1). For example, the panel of the fuel management has a stud (2) that serves to pass in a copper cable, which blocks a switch in the OFF position.
Simple system for blocking switches (3) or selectors (4) avoiding an unauthorized use by the pilot. But permitting, however, the use of it in case of emergency.
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Johan G » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:25 am

I was a bit unsure about that. They looked like they was supposed to be possible to unscrew, nut unlike fuse holders, but they was placed in a quite illogical way for being fuse holders, even more so when looking on other control panels. Another thing against that is the absence of markings. I have been wondering about this before. What they actually are have not cross my mind the least.

To my big surprise they are lamp holders. Apparently the top piece of the control panel, the one with rounded corners, cutouts for the fasteners and is slightly smaller dimensions than the actual mounting plate is a "plastic lighting plate", a translucent plastic sheet painted in black and with translucent white lettering. The knobs are lamp holders (2-10 per panel). This arrangement are only used on some control panels (MIL-P-7788 Type III panel lighting, inactive for new design since at lest late 1070's).

In other words their primary purpose is something completely else and the use shown above most probably required modification by maintenance staff and was probably after incidents of one kind or another and in accordance with some kind of instructions or orders (a great work around it seems, requiring only very minor modifications and completely reversible non the less).

Some links:
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5292
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby J Maverick 16 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:43 pm

Will the G91-R have the PAN Frecce Tricolori livery?

Image

Regards, Maverick
Breakin' the sound barrier every day!

Scenery designer, basic livery maker, aircraft developer (current project: F-16).
Using Thrustmaster FCS Flight Pack.
Follow me also on Instagram & Twitter @j_maverick16, Google+ and YouTube.
User avatar
J Maverick 16
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:26 pm
Location: Northern Italy
Callsign: J-Mav16, OPFOR96
Version: 2018.2.1
OS: macOS 10.12

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:57 pm

It's really interesting! So the locking function of the switches is certainly present, but is not the primary purpose of those studs! Instead, those studs are points of light, this means that should be studied in a panel illumination configuration nocturnal with a special rendering! Thanks for the note and for the manual for the standard MS25010.
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:03 pm

From italian Wikipedia: "G.91PAN": designation assigned to the pre-series aircraft that were appropriately modified for use in aerobatic team; in a second time, for the needs of acrobatic squadron, deficiencies due to some tragic losses, were adapted G91/R to this standard machines. These aircraft remained in service with the Frecce Tricolori from 1964 to 1981, when they were replaced by the Aermacchi MB-339
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Johan G » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:09 am

abassign wrote in Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:57 pm:Instead, those studs are points of light, this means that should be studied in a panel illumination configuration nocturnal with a special rendering!

I think you got this, but just to be sure. Note that the are not illuminating the upper surface of the panel. Instead the light is spread within that translucent plastic sheet and lights the white text from underneath.

Found these US patents on control panel illumination on Google patent search (you might find the illustrations helpful in understanding how the panels are illuminated by that device):
Note: Light is separated to lit parts of the panel in different colors
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5292
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:04 pm

It would be interesting to have a night shot of an instrument console of a FIAT G91 or similar aircraft late 50 'mid-60s', to understand exactly the effect. I have the impression that the stud of the illuminatorobserving patents, performs a dual function: Brighten a sheet of plastic material which are screen-printed words or symbols, as shown by the patent, but also emits a light tangential to the plate screen-printed black , so as to illuminate the switches and knobs. It would be important to have the testimony of a pilot who flew on that generation aircraft, or a museum. I tried to contact the museum of "Italian Air Force" in Vigna di Valle (Rome), but unfortunately they can not switch on the G91 as the battery does not work to open the canopy! : (
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Johan G » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:09 pm

Have a look at the two bottom images here: Non sequitur – cockpit fetish

Looks like the lighting is even more uniform than I had expected. In fact, the quality of the translucent paint seen to do more.

Here is a link to a UK manufacturer: Paramount Panels (UK) (or rather, someone linking to them).
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5292
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby daveculp » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:41 pm

I flew 60's era jets, and yes, the panel was lit from underneath with red light. In black and white drawings the lighted areas are probably not well defined, but I think most letters and heavy lines are "light lines".
User avatar
daveculp
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:50 am
Location: Las Vegas, USA
Callsign: DCulp
Version: 2017.3.1
OS: Ubuntu 17.10

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:32 pm

Finally, it is clarified the function of those strange studs that are located on the instrument panels. They are the lampholders that illuminate the bottom plate of transparent plastic material. The transparent plate is incised with the inscription on present plate black upper. In this way you can have a good illumination of the instrument panel. The light that passes through the bottom plate also allows to illuminate the base of the lever switches.
But sometimes, the lampholder of the backlight of the panel could be used to insert a copper wire, and then lock the switches.

Image
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:02 pm

Image

Our friend "Patrick Melis" is starting to modeling the fuselage and wings of the G91, it will be certainly a wonderful job :) I hope others will give us a hand to other parts of this beautiful aircraft.

Activities currently planned:

FDM JSBSim - Adriano Bassignana (abassign)
3D model - Patrizio Melis

All the modeling should have a high quality, even if the model will be a bit generous ;) Do not worry we will have time to do it to lose weight ...

All model must be Rembrandt compatible !

In case someone wants to contribute I have 0.5 GB of material that I can give the link for DropBox, it needs to have an email to send the link!
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby J Maverick 16 » Wed May 13, 2015 8:47 am

Hi,
What is its current state?
Greetings, Maverick
Breakin' the sound barrier every day!

Scenery designer, basic livery maker, aircraft developer (current project: F-16).
Using Thrustmaster FCS Flight Pack.
Follow me also on Instagram & Twitter @j_maverick16, Google+ and YouTube.
User avatar
J Maverick 16
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:26 pm
Location: Northern Italy
Callsign: J-Mav16, OPFOR96
Version: 2018.2.1
OS: macOS 10.12

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:51 pm

dear @helijah

This post was created to set the work and my hope, in the future, but we do not hurry, I hope to make this model. It is difficult to find a person working with Blender and it's also able to make a plane for FGFS, one of these people now is working, I hope soon has completed this work. If you do not finish it, nothing FIAT Gina! Patience is the life! Maybe some one else can take his place and get the job done, I have all the material necessary to do a good job (about 1 GB of data), who wants to continue the work is welcomed, but beware the quality is important, otherwise I will not spend time to working on the FDM. Unfortunately the FDM is very attached to the model, I tried to set an FDM from a generic plane, but it's difficult and frustrating, I prefer to do things in order. I am an computer scientist and are used to working in this way.
abassign
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: Italy (living 5 Km from airport LIME)
Callsign: I-BASSY
Version: 2018.3
OS: Linux Mint 19. x

Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby cobe571 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:22 am

Hello everyone,
I am the person who is working on the model of the G-91R4 (v.10109). I started working on this model about 25 June 2014. After some time I moved on to work on other 3D models. Meanwhile I had not realized that the interest in this airplane has grown so much to take us to the current situation. I rise to show updates on the current state of development of the G-91R that I picked up recently and that I intend to carry out following the timing of my work.

The first stages:
Image

Working on main body:
Image

Workin on the tail:
Image

Follow...
Last edited by cobe571 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
cobe571
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:28 pm
Callsign: cobe571
Version: 2018.2.2
OS: UbuntuStudio , Win10

PreviousNext

Return to Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests