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FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:50 am

@Thorsten: No man. All of my 3D model parts are NOT GPL. Because made by me only, vertex by vertex, edge by edge, face by face, in these past years.. Because of the hours I spent on it, I will never give to the community as GPL!


You're somehow of the opinion that I want to prevent you from licensing as you prefer - in truth I want no such thing. But if you bundle with GPL content and GPL clauses are relevant, you may discover that what you (or I) wish for your license to be true is irrelevant. That is the point here - if you stay your course, your work may become GPL whether you want it or not.

If your aim is to avoid that, then I don't understand why you're bent on trying to combine incompatible licenses into one package and create a legal mess. Rather than never combining your hires mesh with any GPL content and get abassign to dual-license the FDM in the CC of your choice as well as GPL to be on the safe side.


Censoring is not beautiful, but sometimes necessary, I already asked you yesterday to stop intervening on this topic, at least for a bit 'of days, weeks and maybe even months ...


Look, (really fictional example, not my real opinion) assume I would post somewhere 'The FIAT G91-R (Gina) is completely crappy work'. And then, when you protest, I'd ask you to leave the thread where you wrote this and post your opinions elsewhere. It'd not be fair to do that.

Same here. If you criticize the rendering framework I maintain, I have a right to respond to that as long as we keep it fair and to the point. Please accept that.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby ausdkunst » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:59 am

One way to avoid licensing issue is to create two packages: 1 is your 3D model (which is not GPL) and 2 is everything that is GPL. Put a Readme file in both packages telling users how to install these two packages. This way you can keep your model non-GPL and keep us off your back :)
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:36 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:50 am:
You're somehow of the opinion that I want to prevent you from licensing as you prefer - in truth I want no such thing. But if you bundle with GPL content and GPL clauses are relevant, you may discover that what you (or I) wish for your license to be true is irrelevant. That is the point here - if you stay your course, your work may become GPL whether you want it or not.


No....

No one....not even GNU can change the licence with which you give your work.... even if you bundle it with GPL content.

What GNU 'might' do is ask you to not bundle it... they might well not either.

The documents filed by Amerprise in the case reflect this fearful atmosphere, adopting the classically fear-mongering characterization of the GPL as a "viral" license that "infects" its host and "requires it to become open source, too." It's unfortunate that these ideas are still in circulation, even among lawyers who should know better. The "virus" analogy in particular is badly flawed. The GPL isn't communicated invisibly: whether it's used correctly, incorrectly, or not at all is a matter of basic education and diligence. And the likelihood that a court will order a party to release its infringing product under the GPL is exceedingly slim—money damages or an injunction against further distribution are far likelier outcomes - Aaron Williamson


https://opensource.com/law/14/7/lawsuit ... ing-issues
Last edited by Bomber on Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:38 pm

It'd be interesting to know the source of that text. Without that, it is basically meaningless.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:43 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:50 am:
Same here. If you criticize the rendering framework I maintain, I have a right to respond to that as long as we keep it fair and to the point. Please accept that.


The impression I got was that he was changing the lighting to better see any 3d modelling distortions that might apear in the rendering.. the shadowed area's being too dark to see.

'Criticising', I'm not sure actually happened.... instead an example of how he was achieving this and a request for any supplementary help in doing it better.

I could be wrong of course and there might well be a critisism.... I'm open to seeing this in ballance with his total post.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:46 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:38 pm:It'd be interesting to know the source of that text. Without that, it is basically meaningless.


It's a little thing called the internet... try using a browser and searching engine, the clues for searching are all in the text... let me add the author of the pieces name to it..

RTFM

Simon
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:51 pm

"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:12 pm

I can't find the text block you posted in the text at the link - so maybe this little thing isn't so easy to use after all?

Anyway, assuming it'd be true, your 'legal advice' is then to enter a grey zone because if things become questioned, 'money damages or an injunction against further distribution' are likelier outcomes than a court order to release under GPL?

I guess I'd still go with the safe option...
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:31 pm

well it's there....

I've worked with some seriously smart people, like at Rolls Royce.... and stood behind them at the photocopier where they're struggling to understand how it works. And I've looked at them in their different coloured socks and the trouser bottoms 6inchs above their ankles and thought 'who the hell dresses you in the morning, some people are just too clever for their own good'

I guess I'd still go with the safe option...


Well that's your choice isn't it, and I'm not going to stop you... it's just a shame that others aren't allowed to make their choices without people attempting to stop them or banning them when they've made their choice.

And anyway I'm sure you'll see the irony in my next sentance you see.....My interest is to see correct solutions and explanations presented in this forum. (...) If you want to see me stop answering here, just stop posting wrong advice and explanations - that's all it takes. There's no resentment of any kind involved, just a wish to see things straightened out.


p.s. I'm guessing you're looking in the wrong one.... go look under my block post... it's a different link...
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:38 pm

Well that's your choice isn't it, and I'm not going to stop you... it's just a shame that others aren't allowed to make their choices without people attempting to stop them or banning them when they've made their choice.


Yes - and FG has made the choice to not accept anything that's not GPL compatible into the repository - which didn't keep you from posting pages against it by the way. There's been no attempt to stop or ban anyone in the case of the Gina - not sure where that notion comes from - abassign had a wish to bring his plane onto the repository, and I've offered one way how that can be done while having the hires 3d work protected under CC. Edward has pointed out a second legally safe way to distribute. A lot of people here believe that mixing incompatible licenses is dangerous and we're trying to warn that such distribution may not accomplish what the authors want.

In the world I live in that's called 'trying to be helpful'.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:09 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:38 pm:Yes - and FG has made the choice to not accept anything that's not GPL compatible into the repository - which didn't keep you from posting pages against it by the way.


I don't have a problem with what you do in FGAddon, your house your rules.....

My problem starts when you accuse FGMembers and others (myself) of GPL violations, with little proof and with a large pinch of scaremongery when it comes to any possible outcome...You also fail to acknowledge FGMembers process (which they have worked through) for dealing with any copyright/licence issues. It may be different to FGAddon yet here again you spread faleshood as to the probable outcome of any court related issues, citing priratebay as an equivalent system when it's clearly not. A court will look at the process being used by FGMemebrs and assess if its fair and consistent to all, applied without bias or favour and if the results of it satisfy the requirements of the licences in question... I think the courts will decide it is.

So I don't call what you're doing as helpfull one bit, but actually being a bit of a sh_t to an element of this community that you don't agree with, but that many here do.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby curt » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:21 pm

Bomber, we don't need such an acidic tone in your postings here, please. Even if you intensely dislike someone, you need to set that aside if you wish to participate in a public forum and at least be civil.

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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Thorsten » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:29 pm

Bomber, I don't see how the present thread touches FGMembers in any way - so I won't follow you down that road here - all accusations so far have been backed up by evidence, as recent as a few days ago.

I will however say that while you probably expected me to see irony, I see none. I think what you linked is genuinely interesting, as it gives a different perspective to things Edward has stated here (which probably also come from some experience in a particular legal system). So I appreciate you posting that - it adds to finding 'correct solutions'.

See, when I write some rendering code, and then someone comes along and tells me 'Hey - here's a way to accomplish the same thing three times faster!', there's really two reactions possible.

I can choose to be offended and say things like 'I don't care for your opinion, I'm going to ignore what you say, I do it my way!'

Or I can say 'That's actually interesting - why don't I implement it like that?'

With a certain age, I came to prefer the second approach, because in the long run, everything else makes you look foolish. I guess whether that person was helpful is then in the eye of the beholder :-)
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby Bomber » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:36 pm

Just a reply to another false accusation that I'm against FGAddon rules..

I shouldn't have to stand up and defend myself time and time again.... and if my frustration at having to do so comes across, then I apologise.... but I am only human.
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Re: FIAT G91-R (Gina) - JSBSim

Postby abassign » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:41 pm

To @all

It seems to me that the debate is ending in this way ...
This is an Italian film "very instructive" the era when G91 was flying... ;)



Continue in the wrong place to say things that in this forum regarding a plane not the philosophical principles of someone I think is outrageous and repugnant.
This topic I started, and I would like this continue to give the information about the FIAT G91R4 project!
I hope, as soon as possible, that the moderator take off or moved in the forum everything that does not concern the G91R4 as airplane and its development.
https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29670
Please retry to @Torsten to stop intervening in this specific topic, and to make his remarks in the topic mentioned above ... Otherwise here it ends as in the just mentioned films ;)
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