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Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby lomar » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:45 pm

hi, firsto of all, what a nce job!
i've been testing the bmw today, and it seems like the brakes are a little bit overrrated. is the brake supposed to be like this in the real bike? or not?
can't wait to see if you have more models coming in, these bikes are really great!
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby LesterBoffo » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:59 pm

Hello Lomar,

Well there's different interpretations of what a motorcycle is with these bikes, with the two different types. My first bikes rely upon sneaky and bodge-ish counterweights and aerodynamics for steering lean with some of Alral's programming to add gearing, and have normal run-of-the-mill YAsim brake functions. Where if you press the #1 joystick trigger, ( or "b" key..) you get both brakes. You can modulate them by tapping the trigger or 'b' key or apply either front or rear brakes with either the period "." or comma "," keys. They are not instantaneous in action.

Now the bikes Marc has made are entirely different beasts with much more underlying programming. And I think he's put a Nasal program in that allows you to select ABS braking and a ASC or auto speed control. Frankly, and this is not meant as a slam at Marc, but I have trouble 'riding' his bikes. They seem somewhat arcadish, notchy, and vague in their throttle control, and the lean angle input vs. the rudder is hard to master.

But, they stick to the road like glue.

They also have the lean angle connected directly to aileron control and the front wheel steering is on the rudder channel. In Marc's bikes defense, they have amazing amounts of features like a segmented lap time recorder that also keeps track of other bike's lap times, a neat parking animation and the rider actually animates with the handlebars as they steer.

FWIW I believe that Marc likes modern Sportbikes and I'm more of a classic upright 1960-70's small bike enthusiast. As far as the brakes on the Beemer being real, I've never rode one, so I can't comment. My biggest bike experience was on a late model Triumph Scrambler. I don't think riding a Gixxer 'round the block would qualify me as a liter superbike experiencee.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby D-MKF1 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:23 pm

This weekend I have driven a Ducati 1199 panigale r ... in real live not in simulation software :)
With old tyre we make brake down test from 200 km/h and yes. This bike stand still at once.
Its not to much what you've got in flightgear. Open your fingers fast enough after braking.
Steering it's hard to learn and need a lot of time. I have developed this two machines in
two month and test them nearly every night between half and three hours. Every night, two month.
And now the feeling becomes better and better. On my old linux computer its so hard. On the MacBookPro
its better and on the window 8 computer from a friend of mine, its very smooth.
But without hours of training, you have no change control this bikes. Not in real live and not in simulation :))
And Milky' Quayle said: "You need three years on the Isle of Man!"
Spread your wings,
and enjouy it,
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby LesterBoffo » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:32 pm

If anything I'd say also download the small bikes, and give them a try. The little Yamaha with the gears is set up with about a 60 mph level ground, no wind top speed. It's a good practice bike for getting the feel of the TT course. Run it throttle 'pinned' wide open and short shift it, use your brakes ( tapping them..) for speed control.

See if you can make it around the course without getting spit off into the bushes and gorse. Being smooth in controls is the real key to this, just like in real motorcycling.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby someguy » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:20 pm

I followed Guy around the TT course today...in the Fusca! It was an amazing experience, watching him flying around the island for a new personal record, 18:01.something he said. He could see me above him at times, like the helicopters do in the real race, and he seemed tickled to have a spectator.

I also turned an almost-clean lap on the Yammerhammer, FWIW. In the rain. Les, I can barely wait until your Italian Alps scenery is finished.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby D-MKF1 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:29 pm

It was 18:14.0 :)
I think the greatest problem we have is to figure out, how we can make parameters for user settings.
Every road racer has his own system and feeling.
For me it never works without setting dead-band in the joystick.
Perhaps we need a menu with the configuration for the reaction time and behavior for fork (rudder) and weight shift (aileron) control.
I make the difference in this behavior, cause there is a difference in real life too.
But its hard to control in flightgear without a lot of training hours.

m (key) helps on mouse control aileron = rudder control.
f (key) make the rudder smoother.

Try out, what happens on your systems.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby Johan G » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:35 pm

Who will be driving #53? ;)
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby someguy » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:16 pm

That would be me, Johan. Oh, you don't have the 53 livery? Tsk. :)
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby LesterBoffo » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:22 am

I have an early production image of the Ducati 1100 Multistrada I've been working on. I don't think it's quite as fast as the Gixxer but it still goes way too fast in sixth gear.

Image
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby LesterBoffo » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:43 pm

Sorry Marc to be critical of your work, I know you've got a lot of hours in programming onto these bikes, I can only hope that my inputs help refine them some

I took some time today to practice with the R1000 Beemer. It's a great bike feature wise, but it's one issue that really causes me to not like 'driving' it is that it has an annoying engine action. It sort of hunts around in RPM so much that when you are in a high speed gear, it tends to be constantly accelerating and decelerating, even though I'm holding the throttle 'stick' steady. I notice this also when departing from a standstill, that the engine sort of bogs and then leaps into going in a series of spurts.

I'm sorry but this doesn't feel very prototypical. It really seems to be part of why I end up off the road, well that and that I'm not all that smooth yet.

I looked at the property tree while operating it, and noticed that your chosen nasal control channel for engine braking is either a factor of zero or one, with no decimal or fraction thereof in between. Now in Alral's older nasal I used for my bikes with the gear features, I adapted a nasal sourced modulated engine deceleration effect by tying what was a thruster control ( engines/engine-rev ) into the rear brake control, and because the brakes can accept any variable from 0.0 to 1.0 you get a dynamic range of engine braking.

I don't know if this is something you can tinker into working better, I'm still getting used to the rudder and aileron as steer and lean, in real life bikes operate on centrifugal forces and fork rake and trail angles, and turns are initiated by a subtle effect caused by 'countersteering' which is something I doubt we could implement because of the need for real time forces fedback through our sense of balance and the handlebars.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby someguy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:17 pm

Well, I've tried several times to ride Marc's bikes, but they're simply too fiddly for me. I don't have three hands, nor another person to poke the keyboard while I work the joystick. It took me forever to figure out that the throttle is down-elevator instead of, like, you know...the THROTTLE axis. Maybe I'm just too old, but the last time I rode a motorcycle the controls were divided among both hands and both feet, and only the right hand had to manage more than one function.

If there were a version without gears that used normal joystick inputs, I'd happily give it another chance. I have great respect for those of you who can "fly" these bikes. As it stands, they're just too far over my abilities.
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby D-MKF1 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:19 pm

Hi Lewis,

It sort of hunts around in RPM so much that when you are in a high speed gear, it tends to be constantly accelerating and decelerating, even though I'm holding the throttle 'stick' steady. I notice this also when departing from a standstill, that the engine sort of bogs and then leaps into going in a series of spurts.


Sure, but this is my way for the ACR simulation. I figured out, that we often lost control after flying, or on hard edges of our roads. If compression-m is to low, the thruster push a little bit. So your landing is not with still stand wheels and the result works.
In real live it works exactly contrary, but for this simulation I found not a better solution after different attempts.
Flightgear make no differents between standing or turning wheels. Perhaps you will found a better way in the Ducati.
The fork steering is very hard, we've been over and over that, sure. But I love the feeling between the both methods, weight displacement and fork steering.
And after hours of practice and endless miles, I've got the feeling for that.
For those drivers with only two hands and less than 50 fingers like me, I have implemented the fastcircuit control.
Use your flap control button on joystick or keyboard for gear setting. Note: Switch to neutral before starting the engine.
The next profit is, that we will get more and more models like your Ducati or others, with other control functions, features and driving behavior.
And after a while, everybody will find his proper model.
Hope I will always see them in my driving mirror :)
Marc
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby D-MKF1 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:38 am

The new race course on North Ireland is open.

http://marc-kraus.de/fg

The bikes and scenery are on development.
Be sure, that you always have the last version of bikes and scenery before start up a multiplayer race session.

Image
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby LesterBoffo » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:48 pm

I should mention that Marc's latest issue of the Gixxer and the R1000 seem to have been improved enough that I'm not having as much trouble with them. I would like to borrow your nasal tweak that added the gears to the up and down flap button on the joystick. Is this something that could be added to my present bikes without having to completely rewrite their original nasal? ( Which I'd like to keep..)

BTW the new NW200 course is really nice!
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Re: Scooters and Motorcycles for FlightGear

Postby D-MKF1 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:53 am

Hope it will works for you.
Last development for the road race :))

Image

Image

Conrad Harrison and Mike Aylott at practice.
Sidecars coming soon.
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