Board index FlightGear Development Aircraft

New Aircraft: the Extra500

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby D-EKEW » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:50 pm

After a year of calculating, modeling, coding and testing D-STHO, D-Leon and D-EKEW are happy to present to you:

the Extra500

Image

The extra500 is a six seat turboprop business aircraft with a full carbon fiber structure. Goes up to FL250 and does a bit over 200kts in cruise. It is known for having the best handling characteristics of any GA aircraft (except maybe the Extra aerobatic aircraft).

We aim to make the model as realistic as possible/practicable, meaning the aircraft, controls and systems behave like in the real thing. If you know your way around in our model, you can spare your type rating training. But don't worry there is an autostart and some basic tutorials to get you going fast.

Aerodynamics, autopilot and some systems are modeled in JSBsim, most systems are coded in Nasal. The Glass cockpit uses the Canvas system.

A few highlights:
    * glass cockpit incl. moving map
    * realistic engine behavior and indication at engine start-up as well as in flight
    * realistic electrical system including electrical loads, automatic load shedding, battery depletion, popping circuit breakers etc
    * realistic autopilot with all modes available as in the real AC, including Control Wheel Steering and GPSS
    * audiopanel including anti-noise system
    * multiplayer sound (engine sounds are real recordings)
    * pressurization system
    * Rembrand ready

Please have a look at the wiki page:
http://wiki.flightgear.org/Extra_EA-500

Download from gitorious:
Code: Select all
git clone https://git.gitorious.org/extra500/extra500.git
cd extra500
git checkout version/1.0.0


Or go to here https://www.gitorious.org/extra500/extra500 and download directly.

License is of course GPLv2, can be flown with Flightgear version 2.12 and upwards.
We have no objection to add it to GIT :wink:
Last edited by D-EKEW on Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby jcomm » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:29 pm

Whow!!!! Looks great!!!!
___________________________________________________
Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...
I'm grateful to All of those who make that Possible...

(Win7 64 bit, i5 2500 @3,3, GTX 650 Ti 1GB GDDR5, Hotas Cougar + Saitek Rudder)
jcomm
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:55 pm
OS: Win 7 64 bit

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby hamzaalloush » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:07 pm

very nice touches especially the payload calculator, i seem to have a problem with text in FG so i couldn't read the payload GUI as nice, but that's an installation problem for me(not yours, i also have it on 777 ND displays)

i liked the flight model, there is a note i feel though that diff braking when applied is weaker than braking with 'b'.

i can see myself taking the time to learn this plane, thank you
hamzaalloush
 
Posts: 632
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:31 am
OS: Windows 10

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby forest-ka » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:00 pm

This seems like a very high quality aircraft, but it's far too slow for me to use (I get about 1.5 fps with this aircraft at small airports). A hint: you might want to save the SVG files as plain SVG (as opposed to Inkscape SVG) to get rid of the parsesvg warnings.
forest-ka
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:00 pm
Callsign: N124AL
Version: 2.12.1
OS: Arch Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby someguy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:16 pm

I can get up to 7 fps...if I adjust the view so the panel is out of sight. Otherwise, the frame spacing is around 750, obviously unflyable. Unfortunately, pressing "c" does not make the model go away as it should. I guess it's yet another overly-detailed model that only a few users with the best video cards will be able to use. I'm deleting this plane, just in case I meet someone else with one in MP, which would instantly drop me below 1 fps. It's worse than the bloody 777.

BTW, the gear don't retract. The panel lever moves, but the gear stay down, and red text bitches at me to raise the gear above 140.
Last edited by someguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
someguy
 
Posts: 1653
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:54 am
Location: USA
Version: 2016.2.1
OS: Mac OS X 10.11

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby forest-ka » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:13 am

Please don't be so negative. It's a high-quality plane -- it doesn't work for you (or me) -- just remove it. This is the penalty for realism. (BTW I can't fly the 777 either, and Michat can't even run FG.)
forest-ka
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:00 pm
Callsign: N124AL
Version: 2.12.1
OS: Arch Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby Kabuki » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:11 am

forest-ka wrote in Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:13 am:Please don't be so negative. It's a high-quality plane -- it doesn't work for you (or me) -- just remove it. This is the penalty for realism. (BTW I can't fly the 777 either, and Michat can't even run FG.)


The 707 is a highly detailed aircraft, yet I yet decent framerates with it.
This is a family-friendly saloon. No talk stink.
Kabuki
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:21 pm
Location: Usually on the ground, always in the sky, except when underwater.
Callsign: Kabuki
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby Buckaroo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:20 am

I'm not condoning someguy's tone, but his statement is valid feedback. Having developed a plane or two myself, I've learned that not all feedback will be positive, and not all negative feedback is valueless. And "high-quality" or "realistic" should not imply that such qualities are impossible to achieve with an aircraft that can be flown using a reasonably contemporary computer.

Personally I can't fly the Extra500 but I didn't expect to. The aircraft uses some of the more cutting-edge Flightgear technologies that are beyond my aging system. It will load however, after a host of console errors, and I can say that the model itself uses 3D objects of reasonable polygonal density, and textures of reasonable size. I get 40+ FPS with the model loaded, using no "Rembrandt" or other render-intensive environmental features. It's likely that specialized scripts, Canvas, or special effect features will slow things down, but I can't evaluate those on my current system. There's always room for optimization and improvement with almost any model, particularly new ones. It's a shame I can't operate the Extra500, but it's good to see anyway.

This is a fine work and an interesting aircraft. I'm looking forward to seeing additional progress, particularly when more cockpit work is done. I congratulate the authors on a great plane.

-Buck
Callsign: Buckaro(o)
Author: Lockheed 1049H Constellation, Grumman Goose, MD-81, Edgley Optica, Velocity XL RG, YASim Guide
User avatar
Buckaroo
 
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:45 am
Location: Bloomington IN USA
Callsign: Buckaro(o)
Version: 2.10
OS: Windows & Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby 747sp » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:19 am

Amazing aircraft!!
User avatar
747sp
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:35 pm
Callsign: OMS120

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby forest-ka » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:25 am

I'm pretty sure it's because of the canvas -- when I added a canvas to one of my aircraft, framerate went from 30FPS to 20FPS, and that's for a 640x480 HUD canvas.
forest-ka
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:00 pm
Callsign: N124AL
Version: 2.12.1
OS: Arch Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby D-EKEW » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:59 am

Thank you for your feedback (also the negative ones).

We are aware that the aircraft is a bit heavy on the resource side. That is partially due to the amount of realism of course. I can only say that I am running the 500 on a five year old machine that cost ~300euros at the time and a video card one year old of ~140euros. Have a framerate of 12-15 and framespacing between 30-100ms.
However as we know from discussion elsewhere, different machines have different bottlenecks.

If you can't run it we are sorry. Luckily the aircraft is licensed under GPLv2 so you are free to take it and alter it so it does work for you.

Differential braking: The total brake force is the same, but the effectiveness of the differential braking is limited. This has to do with the relatively small wheel base of the main gear. Luckily there is nosewheel steering.

Gear retraction: It does retract of course. It takes about 13-14seconds however. If it is moving you can see the GEAR WARN and HYDRAULIC lights on the annunciator panel. It they do not light, check the CB-panel if the all CB-s are in.

Cheers,

Eric
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby ludomotico » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am

Thank you very much for this!

I tested the aircraft for a few minutes but I'm planning to put more time on it these days. Some thoughts:

- I don't have any performance problem and my computer is more than 3 years old. 30 FPS steady with medium quality rendering settins (ALS on, most shaders high except urban and water). As a reference: the C172P gets 50 FPS. These are very strange numbers and higher than usual. I noticed a significant enhancement in the performance of the the git version of fgfs some weeks ago that I can't explain yet. I'm not going to complain about this.
- I couldn't fly this aircraft using the keyboard since the arrow keys don't seem to work.
- Brake and parking brake were confusing at first, until I realized you have to press the normal brakes to use the parking brake. This is nice, some aircrafts in real life work like this. But in fgfs, normal brakes and parking brakes are assigned to the same key (b and shift+b), so they are confusing to operate. At least, compared to other aircrafts. I believe you have to press brakes (b) and when stopped and without releasing the brakes (b), press (shift)
- Some switches do not work, right? Especially, battery and avionics master. Maybe my memory is deceiving me, but I think the first time I used this aircraft all panels were switched off. Now, they are always on. Is the state of the buttons saved? In this case, I don't know how to switch the aircraft off
- The panel needs more work, but not really much :) I don't like plain textures like the plain-yellow panel texture, and I don't like seeing the livery inside the cockpit. That's all. Well, liveries could have a bit more details.
- How can I select a radial for the VOR?
- How can I see & operate the NAV frequencies from the main panel?
- I like the warning messages from the flight instructor "temperature can be over XXX only during the takeoff". They remind me my flight lessons. Nice touch!

Oh, please, remember the git address to clone for those of us without writing privileges on your repository is the https address:

git clone https://git.gitorious.org/extra500/extra500.git

Thank you for your efforts!

Edit: I have just realized the master branch is not the one tagged as version/1.0.0 :) I will check version/1.0.0 and read more carefully your guides next time!
User avatar
ludomotico
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:01 pm
Version: git
OS: Debian GNU/Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby D-EKEW » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:32 am

Thank you for your report ludomotico,

Parking brake: Yes, this might be confusing since most (all?) fgfs aircraft just set the parkbrake with one key (shift-b). On larger aircraft, usually those that have a hydraulic pump to support braking, this is correct. For others like the 500 it is not. The hydraulic pressure is build up by cylinders at the rudder pedals and the parking brake when set is a check valve, thus trapping the hydraulic fluid (and thus pressure) at the brake side. Therefore there are two ways to set the parkbrake:
1. Pull the parkbrake (middle bowden cable handle in the middle console or just shift-b) and then press b to build up brake pressure.
2. Build up brake pressure and then pull the parkbrake.

Key control: Must admit I never tried. I think we tied these keys for some development stuff, but I think we can untie them as we dont use that anymore. For me the mouse is the control of choice.

Switches: There is a default switch position for the first time you use the aircraft (or deleted the extra500 autosave file obviously), but after that you will find the aircraft as you left it. This is true for switches and circuit breakers, nav frequencies, doors, altimeter setting etc. For swiching the aircraft off: the upper (red) row on the side switch panel must be off. The avionic switch powers the avionics bus on which only a few units are located. Autopilot being the most prominant one.

The interior modelling is not very advanced (read: hardly present) at the moment, the panel is finished regarding instruments (but not instrument functionality). Its on our ToDo list.

Course is set with the left lower turn knob on the IFD (set to Nav1 or Nav2 first: NAV source can be changed using the left upper side knob on the LH IFD). Use shift for 10 deg steps.
COM and NAV frequecies can be set on the keypad, but also in the RH IFD. Again with the LH lower knob. Turn to change, press to switch.
Also have a look in the README file for some more basics!
We are working on advanded tutorials at the moment, you are invited to stay on master which improvements will be merged to until the next release.

Flight instructor: Yes, I am very frustrated with the lack of realistic turbine engine parameter indication in flightgear in general, so I put a lot of work in that (still some room for improvement). Especially TOT (ot TIT) rise with altitude seems to fail entirely as well as a realistic TOT climb/peak at engine start. Having this implemented I found it only fair to let the user know what the limits are.

Cheers,

Eric
D-EKEW
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:22 pm
Callsign: D-EKEW, ELLX-TWR
Version: git
OS: Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby D-Leon » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:45 am

Thank you ludomotico for feedback

ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- I couldn't fly this aircraft using the keyboard since the arrow keys don't seem to work.

oh that's not intended, will have a look after it.
ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- Brake and parking brake were confusing at first, until I realized you have to press the normal brakes to use the parking brake. This is nice, some aircrafts in real life work like this. But in fgfs, normal brakes and parking brakes are assigned to the same key (b and shift+b), so they are confusing to operate. At least, compared to other aircrafts. I believe you have to press brakes (b) and when stopped and without releasing the brakes (b), press (shift)

yes the brakes "b" raises the pressure on the brakes and with (shift+b) you close the check valve that holds the pressure on the breaks.

ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- Some switches do not work, right? Especially, battery and avionics master. Maybe my memory is deceiving me, but I think the first time I used this aircraft all panels were switched off. Now, they are always on. Is the state of the buttons saved? In this case, I don't know how to switch the aircraft off

All physical switches in the extra500 are saved in the state you leave it. So comming back in the extra500 means no one was sitting on your seat and switching your cockpit ;-). The battery capacity is although saved, so a restart will not refill it. If empty plug the extanal Generator "Ctrl+e" check illumination annuciator panel and switch on the external power switch (below the battery switch) now you can start by external power. To charge the battery just switch it on.
if you dont like it delete the ~/.fgfs/aircraft-data/extra500.xml then you have a brand new factory state.
To get the aircraft off shutdown the engine and switch off all power source (battery & external Generator)

ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- The panel needs more work, but not really much :) I don't like plain textures like the plain-yellow panel texture, and I don't like seeing the livery inside the cockpit. That's all. Well, liveries could have a bit more details.

Its on the list ;-)

ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- How can I select a radial for the VOR?

IFD(Integrated Flight Display) switch to the PFD(Primary Flight Display) screen.
make sure the the "Primary Nav" (the Nav source selector) is on Nav1 or Nav2.
then the left knob on the button rotates the radial. Mouse wheel 1step, shift+wheel 10step adjusted to the next 10s.

ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- How can I see & operate the NAV frequencies from the main panel?

its easieer on the keypad in the center console.
click on NAV1 to edit the stby.
use the keyboard to enter. be watchful the first number is already there.
if you want ro enter freqency 111.400 you only have to type [1][1][4].
then transfer it to the active with the arrow key on the left of the display.


ludomotico wrote in Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:07 am:- I like the warning messages from the flight instructor "temperature can be over XXX only during the takeoff". They remind me my flight lessons. Nice touch!

I have a switch in mind when the lessons are over. ;-)

Regards,
Dirk
D-Leon
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:44 am
Callsign: D-Leon
OS: Linux

Re: New Aircraft: the Extra500

Postby Thorsten » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:02 pm

We are aware that the aircraft is a bit heavy on the resource side.


Echoing what others have said here, yes. I'm getting a whopping 12 fps out of it on a high-end gaming laptop - out of curiosity - what kind of machine is it expected to run reliably with 30 fps?

I've done some testing - the framerate is independent of shader quality settings, but depends very much on the view angle, so the culprit is the panel rendering, not any Nasal script simulating systems. I haven't seen anything in the panel which would really explain this unusually low result, there's existing aircraft with similar instrumentation and complex systems which give framerates well above 30 on my machine with all rendering details maxed out, so I would strongly suggest you don't chalk it up as an inevitable consequence of realism, but entertain the possibility that the panel might be designed in a very inefficient way.

Well, that's just my two cents after taking 10 minutes with it...
Thorsten
 
Posts: 10986
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:33 am

Next

Return to Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vezza and 19 guests