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F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby V12 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:52 pm

I'm not fighter pilot, but tested this bird today in Grand Canyon. Amazing work. Big thanks to all authors.
Fly high, fly fast - fly Concorde !
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am

Not sure how up to date the FGAddon version is, but that is what I used.

Reminds me of the good old days in Falcon 4 (which taught me a lot about air combat as well as flying in general). Generally I enjoy cruising around with the bird. Flies still like a charm, easy on the controls, the FBW works like I remember, very nice to land... And extremely nimble at 450 kt...

A couple of random observations I made today:

* the HUD does seem to take head position into account for boresight and flight path marker - that's good - but actually my understanding is that the projection to infinity means the whole of the HUD should move as one when the head is moved (i.e. at some point one would see it 'half' if the head is moved out far enough. Given that the transformations already are correct for some elements, that should be easy to do.

* I can't make out for the heck of it a difference between the A and the E variants - my memory is foggy, but I do seem to recall that the A had a simpler HUD, generally less alphanumerics, and in the C the HUD was already made larger. What am I selecting here?

* unguided bombs had CCIP and DTOS targeting modes where one would see an aim point on the HUD, mark that and then release when a counting line would hit zero - somehow I couldn't get that to work - am I missing something or is this not implemented (admittedly tossing guided bombs at GPS coordinates isn't my idea of a challenge...)?

* 'bitchin' betty' seems to have odd behavior at times - she called me out on 'altitude' at 10.000 ft above ground... Perhaps a bit over-cautious? Can she be told to be les critical for low-level flying?

* afterburner flame at night seems to be a never-ending story... What happens to photographs is that they're taken to show the aircraft, so they inevitably over-expose on the flame which then loses all color and gets white in the video/photograph. That's not what happens to the human eye, so I firmly believe the correct thing is to leave them like during the day - there's no effect known to me which could change the flame color like this, and matching low light photographs is generally not leading to what the human eye can see
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:45 pm

*unguided bombs had CCIP and DTOS targeting modes where one would see an aim point on the HUD, mark that and then release when a counting line would hit zero - somehow I couldn't get that to work - am I missing something or is this not implemented (admittedly tossing guided bombs at GPS coordinates isn't my idea of a challenge...)?

You'll need to enable laser arm for certain bombs; also you'll not see the CCIP unless you have both a valid target locked and master arm on. Thats just from memory, there may be more conditions.

* 'bitchin' betty' seems to have odd behavior at times - she called me out on 'altitude' at 10.000 ft above ground... Perhaps a bit over-cautious? Can she be told to be les critical for low-level flying?


That callout would probably be for resetting the altimeter at your transition altitude (or else something odd did happen?)
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:52 pm

also you'll not see the CCIP unless you have both a valid target locked and master arm on


I understand in the old days of Falcon 4 and the F-16A this was really visually locked, i.e. you IDd the target point by aiming a point in the HUD over whatever you designated as target - so I guess if you require a target locked here, this simply doesn't work.

That callout would probably be for resetting the altimeter at your transition altitude (or else something odd did happen?)


I had reached bingo fuel, ended the dogfight training scenario and turned back to base - so there wasn't anything I'd call 'odd' at the time (she did shut up 20 seconds later...)
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:02 pm

I think the more modern ones use the TGP for aiming at no particular target - you can click a point in the scenery in the infrared camera view by clicking the TGP button on the lower left screen. You can then lock and pass the guidance on to the weapons system by clicking another button - sorry, been a while since I used it, so I can't remember exactly!

The Mark 1 eyeball also still works :)
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby J Maverick 16 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Well first of all thanks for trying it out and giving feedback! Yeah the FGAddon can be considered "old" right now considering the number of commits which are pushed weekly into the main repo.

Thorsten wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am:* the HUD does seem to take head position into account for boresight and flight path marker - that's good - but actually my understanding is that the projection to infinity means the whole of the HUD should move as one when the head is moved (i.e. at some point one would see it 'half' if the head is moved out far enough. Given that the transformations already are correct for some elements, that should be easy to do.

That's a good point indeed, I noticed it as well on real and DCS videos. HUD ain't part of my area of work, but surely Necolatis can provide a deeper insight into this.

Thorsten wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am:* I can't make out for the heck of it a difference between the A and the E variants - my memory is foggy, but I do seem to recall that the A had a simpler HUD, generally less alphanumerics, and in the C the HUD was already made larger. What am I selecting here?

AFAIK for now we are keeping a modern-block version of the HUD for all version as we haven't yet really focused on differentiating the various versions except for performance, liveries and some systems. Again, Necolatis can surely answer better than me on this.

Thorsten wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am:* unguided bombs had CCIP and DTOS targeting modes where one would see an aim point on the HUD, mark that and then release when a counting line would hit zero - somehow I couldn't get that to work - am I missing something or is this not implemented (admittedly tossing guided bombs at GPS coordinates isn't my idea of a challenge...)?

The counting line is featured in the CCRP, and works better when a specific area/target is locked with TGP (load up a targeting pod and select it on the bottom right of the MFD in flight). So at that point you can just fly straight above the target and press the trigger when indeed the line drops to 0. Definitely the most recommended for guided weapons, as they require higher altitude for more precise guidance.
CCIP instead has the impact point marker on the HUD, way more useful with unguided ammo at low altitude (I managed to reach a hit within 3m multiple times with a bit of practice).

Thorsten wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am:* 'bitchin' betty' seems to have odd behavior at times - she called me out on 'altitude' at 10.000 ft above ground... Perhaps a bit over-cautious? Can she be told to be less critical for low-level flying?

What you heard was probably the MSL Floor reminder (default Angels 18). And yes she can be asked to be less invasive during low-level flight by just inputting the desired warning altitude in the control panel menu.

Thorsten wrote in Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:55 am:* afterburner flame at night seems to be a never-ending story... What happens to photographs is that they're taken to show the aircraft, so they inevitably over-expose on the flame which then loses all color and gets white in the video/photograph. That's not what happens to the human eye, so I firmly believe the correct thing is to leave them like during the day - there's no effect known to me which could change the flame color like this, and matching low light photographs is generally not leading to what the human eye can see

I had the chance to see F-16s taking off with burners on low-light/dark conditions multiple times IRL at Aviano and they indeed can be that much bright. Ok the camera indeed affects them a bit but in the end I think what we have right now in FG is not too far-fetched either.

Hope it gives some answers :wink:
Regards, Mav
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:19 pm

Okay, I've found how to select CCIP - works well enough for unguided mud moving assortment, I guess I'm getting some 5-10 m accuracy (hard to see the exact impact point, but clearly I can hit dead center in threshold markers on a runway).

I can't really make use of the target pod - I can select the view, and it seems to point somewhere - sometimes I see ground moving by fast, sometimes I even see sky. When it points at the ground, I seem to be able to lock it somewhere, but I didn't get as far as actually releasing a weapon. Probably I'm not doing something right...

So - is the pod what defines a target? The manual is a bit vague on the point. Or does a target have to be a specifically prepared AI scenario?

I guess the Maverick also needs a target to work (in Falcon 4 it needed to be aimed using the ground radar mode, but I have a hunch that might be hard to model in FG...) - at least I couldn't get it to do anything.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:52 pm

At least partially solved the pod targeting issue - the key is having really good weather, flying pretty high (>15.000 ft AGL) and somehow being able to spot a target using the target pod view (something I seem to suck at). But once I actually managed to ID and flag an airport as target, I was able to hit it with various laser-guided weapons in CCRP.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Necolatis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:52 am

Yeah, there is not really any ground radar mode. But the air radar can lock groundtargets, but with less accuracy.
First unlock the targetpod if its locked.
So pick up the target with the air radar, yes it can be a scenario target.
Then switch to targetpod, and you will probably be able to visually see the target since the pod will be following it, but it wont be in the center of the targetpod view unless your very lucky.
Move the targetpod to get a better aim at the target, then lock the targetpod. Now you should have a better look on it than you had with the radar.
Switch back to cockpit view and aim the aircraft at the target.
If CCRP then fly over the target and drop when the little moving line hits the other little line (or when it start moving up again). If laser guided munition, switch on the laser.
If Maverick then aim the HUD at the target and fire.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Necolatis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:57 am

What we do most of the time when we bomb is start a second FG client with for example the depot from here: https://github.com/l0k1/oprf_assets
The depot menu allows you to select which kind of target you want it to be.

But scenario targets should work as well.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:08 am

I don't know whether you have already put any effort into that, but I was a bit unhappy with the animation and after-effects of the explosions.

Since it seems I can't simply enjoy FG and have to tinker, I have test-rigged the Mk 82 to give a more plausible explosion Generally the blast from a ground impact is not symmetrically distributed around the detonation point but is focused upward - but not always straight. Looking at footage, the fireball itself is somewhat irregular.

Supposedly the Mk 84 leaves a 15 m wide crater, so the effect of a Mk 82 would be a bit smaller, I have it now (shamelessly using the model that comes with the Vulcan) around ~8 meters in the decal, and after impact there's always some residual smoke from smouldering whatever was hit.

To me this looks fairly plausible for bombing an airfield with the lighter weaponry:

Ready to rumble:

Image

Initial blast in tower view, somewhat irregular.

Image

Secondary blast and decal addition:

Image

Somewhat randomized smoke columns after the second pass:

Image

Smoke/debris and decals from the ground after the second pass:

Image

And the airfield covered in craters after the third and final pass:

Image

Of course that's only the Mk 82 so far, I'm guessing the Mk 82 and 84 need a somewhat different explosion (and decal), and I still have to suppress decals for detonations in air and on water.

Anyway - if you're interested, get in touch - if not I'll have it my private mod.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby J Maverick 16 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:09 am

I always wanted a more destructive kind of explosion effect for the A/G weapons so yeah I'm definitely up for it!
Wow the 5th screenshot is the one that impresses me most, love those aftermath craters + smoke.
My only thought would be that the crater would look awkward when hitting an AI/MP target, but probably you know better than me how it should work :wink: .
Feel free to continue improving it and we will surely implement it.
Thanks a lot.
Regards, Mav
Last edited by J Maverick 16 on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Necolatis » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:51 am

Looks good Thorsten. Yeah, we are interested.

And yes, as Legoboy said, the MSL Floor warning is a reminder to switch to/from standard pressure.

You are right about the HUD, Colin did that to the Viggen, I should do that for the F-16 HUD also.

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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby Thorsten » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:14 am

My only thought would be that the crater would look awkward when hitting an AI/MP target, but probably you know better than me how it should work .


I'd assume missile-code.nas knows when it hits an AI/MP target (though I haven't gone through all of it...) - if so it'd be straightforward to set a veto on placing the crater (I've rigged the animate_explosion() function in there to deal with decal-placement, the new explosion visuals still reside with the weapon definition - I'm not overly happy about defining 12 explosions for every Mk 82 the F-16 can carry, but I assume you've tested and exhausted all ways of simply placing a generic explosion from a model lib into the scene already?).

It probably looks most awkward when the weapon hits a large, complicated-shaped static building - I'm fairly sure we can't recognize that situation from a geodinfo query :( - if I remember correctly such a call on top of a building returns the landclass underneath but the altitude of the structure.

Maybe one can also take the terrain normal into account... I'll test a few cases.
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Re: F-16 upgraded to 'production' status

Postby J Maverick 16 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:22 pm

Performing some tests with the WIP Hydra 70 rockets:

Image

Image

Still a lot to do to sort out all the bugs but the core weapon is there.
Regards, Mav
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