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Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

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Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby someguy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:05 am

<RANT>

Here's why adding landing lights to your model is a stupid idea, and why using such planes in a group flight is possibly even stupider:

Image

Image

Lovely group screenie, isn't it? If you can't tell, it's the Sukhoi fighters that are causing the problem. Today I tried to land next to METAL, but his "lights" made the runway disappear.

If you cannot resist adding such useless, unrealistic junk to your models, at least have the courtesy to provide an OFF switch. Better yet, don't let it show over MP. Otherwise, those of us who find the effect annoying will delete your models and you will vanish from our world. You're not impressing anyone.

</RANT>
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby StuartC » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:27 am

I can tell by the screen shots your using a Mac.
instead of complaining about the aircraft ( which work fine under other OS ), complain to the FG DEV team to pull there fingers out and start properly developing for mac OS again.

This is how the standard non rembrandt light cones look under FG v2.10 for windows:-
Image

Its not our fault your setup is not capable.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Gijs » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:43 pm

Those non-Rembrandt lights use a shader hack that never looked quite right. Instead of adding light, those "light" cones multiply the existing color of the surface. When several cones overlap, the surface eventually turns white. In full darkness they don't cast any light and in anything other than full daylight they have a very low intensity. Basically they are not lights but bad mirrors. ;-)

The hack was never fully supported, simply because it was a hack that couldn't provide what we needed (and what Rembrandt gave us).
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby someguy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:09 pm

*click* <-- sound of me deleting Stuart's models from my HD
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Bomber » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:40 pm

Children.....
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Thorsten » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:06 am

Is the first pic in default or Atmospheric Light Scattering? The sky looks like default, but the airport green looks is my Real Grass (TM) shader effect...

Those non-Rembrandt lights use a shader hack that never looked quite right. Instead of adding light, those "light" cones multiply the existing color of the surface


Makes you wonder why. You have the existing surface color which is texel_color * light, you have light, so unless light is really vec4 (0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0) (which we actually don't do - there's usually some residual light...) you can exactly undo the equation to get texel_color and multiply that with any light you desire instead and clamp accordingly. True, Rembrandt is a much better way to do the same thing, but the way the light is done without Rembrandt isn't god-given.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby someguy » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:24 pm

Scattering was enabled.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby LesterBoffo » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:54 pm

This is one of the reasons why I've elected to use the 'light beams' from the PA22 Tri-Pacer, they actually look like and behave like landing light beams. I could post an image of my motorcycle with it's headlight on at dusk, you won't see the beam so much as the illuminated patch on the ground it's aimed at. Normally light beams are very rarely seen in the air they pass through, unless there's a lot of smoke, fog or dust suspended in the air it passes through.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:05 am

Normally light beams are very rarely seen in the air they pass through, unless there's a lot of smoke, fog or dust suspended in the air it passes through.


Actually, it's pretty complicated. The normal situation in which you would see them is fog, and scattering on fog droplets is usually Mie scattering, which means that it's very forward-peaked. So you won't see the beam from the side (i.e. under a 90 degree angle), but you will start to see it under shallow angles, like 10-20 degrees.

Smoke tends to have finer particles, so here you might rather see Rayleigh scattering and a color-shift of the beam, but you would see it from all directions equally well.

Scattering was enabled.


Strange they're visible at all... the technique number of the effect should actually be too high to be executed at all.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby someguy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:17 pm

Obviously, there's something going on that my iMac's video system can't interpret, probably because Apple's video drivers are so conservative. Equally obviously, some aircraft authors are either 1) too lazy to test on different platforms, or b) too arrogant to care how their work appears on anyone else's screen. In both cases, the reward for their misguided effort is a yellow glider.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby StuartC » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:34 pm

We did test and the problen relates to older Mac OS versions and newer FG versions..
This is not an issue that Aircraft developers can resolve, its down to the core development. This was raised by Neilson in the Rembrandt thread here during the life of FG V2.8 in the hope there would be fix for this problem and the almost non existant rembrandt support for Mac's as a whole.
As you can see, its still an issue ( Older Mac OS + Newer FG ).
All you need to do to fix this in any aircraft is remove the landing light code from the aircraft XML and it wont bug you any more.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby 5H1N0B1 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:50 pm

Serriously guy...
The developpers/aircraft makers aren't paid to do this or something...
They do it in their free time, making aircraft requires lot of time, and they have life/jobs/familly etc. You can't says they are lazy, arrogant or I don't know what.
Even if you use Flightgear they don't owe you something.

If you don't like plane, you can :
1) as you say delete it
2)but you can help resolving what you dislike (or do it youself)
The second option is called contribution...
We will enjoy your help.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Thorsten » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:29 pm

Obviously, there's something going on that my iMac's video system can't interpret, probably because Apple's video drivers are so conservative. Equally obviously, some aircraft authors are either 1) too lazy to test on different platforms, or b) too arrogant to care how their work appears on anyone else's screen. In both cases, the reward for their misguided effort is a yellow glider.


I'm not sure what you expect. Have you ever tried to debug an issue that doesn't cause errors on your computer? It's damn difficult in the first place. I don't own a Mac, and I'm not going to spend 1000$ or so just to have one more computer to test things on, and I don't know of anyone who buys computers for the whole purpose of testing FG on more platforms. If you pay me a Mac, I'll be happy to test on MacOS as well, but unless you do, just... be silent.

So as a rule we can try to pin down and solve such issues if, and only if, we get a decent bug report with tons of relevant background info and the possibility to ask follow-up questions. Remember, fixing such issues involves essentially working blind - it is trying to figure out why code that runs pefectly fine on your own computer might have issues on other computers and any traditional bug-hunting technique essentially fails.

Posting a screenshot of the issue is nice, but tells little more than that it exists. It's completely impossible to turn that into any action developer-side. The underlying shader code has probably a combined 1000 lines, any of which could be problematic. You can have a go yourself if you think there's arrogance involved while it's technically easy to fix...

This was raised by Neilson in the Rembrandt thread here during the life of FG V2.8 in the hope there would be fix for this problem and the almost non existant rembrandt support for Mac's as a whole.


As far as I understood, this refers to the non-Rembrandt light cones, thus bringing up the problem in a Rembrandt thread is almost guaranteed to hide it from the people potentially interested.

Insofar as it involves Atmospheric Light Scattering, it would seem to be 'my' problem, except that I have never forseen support for the lightcone effect hack in the framework and as far as I am concerned it should just be plain invisible (that was the message I got from someone (StuartC? Neilson?) a whole ago, backed up with screenshots showing a vanished light cone when Light Scattering was on).

So can anyone here give a concise summary under what condition the problem seen in the screenshot arises and under what conditions it doesn't, or is this just a flamewar thread?
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby StuartC » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:51 pm

Neilson was reporting it previously. I cant replicate the issue ( windows PC ).
I'll ask him to provide some screen shorts for you.
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Re: Landing lights showing up as near-solid white cones

Postby Neilson » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:59 pm

Here we go

Mac OSX 10.6.8
FlightGear-2.10.0-r379.dmg
ATI Radeon HD 4870

All FG settings and setups still show the weird light. and rembrant off.

SU-37
http://www.fguk.eu/fguk-hangar/military ... -flanker-f

I have this with any plane set up with Rembrant, ( Stuart has done something to the tornado witch had this, and now it dose not.)
So this might be fixed, still need to confirm it.

I did see somewhere that Mac OSX 10.8. has no problems, and its only £13.99 to update to it. Which i am soon to be doing.

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