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Aircraft Rating System

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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Bomber » Thu May 29, 2014 12:48 pm

To me there seem to be 2 target audiences..

1) The user who wants to understand if the planes worth downloading.

2) The developer who wants to attract specialist developers to fill in the blanks.

Simon.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu May 29, 2014 1:18 pm

@hvengel:
A subjective rating is a SUBJECTIVE rating. I assumed, we wanted to have the subjectives tastes of users included because that was the thing that made sense to me. So yes, statistics is not that simple, tell me about it. Still, since we have anyway a vary limited base set, if we would strictly apply statistical methods, any probe in this would be iffy. But then, the point statistics can't cover completely is to have not more than maybe 60 people in the probe because that covers already 100% of the conclusion set.
So from a mere mathematical point of view, the noise is out least problem because actually, in this situation, what you call "noise" would be limited to some mis-clicks. The other part would be personal taste and that would be exactly what we try to catch.
Would this help developers. Maybe, maybe not. That again depends on the tastes and intentions of plane developers. Some want to make popular models, some want to do things just for the fun, others fall in love with a plane and want it as complete and detailed as possible. Thus developers will see this kind of rating anyway with different ideas in mind. I wouldn't call that fallacious but rather "individual".
Personally, the P51D is a nice plane, I love it from an aesthetic point of view, but since I don't own a joystick, I can't fly it. Maybe I figure out how to do it with keyboard, maybe not. Actually, I would like to try, but I have currently a testflight over two days running, then some training rounds with the 747-8 freighter and thus ... it will take a little time. Which actually illuminates the real statistical problem: A small base set and users who hadn't even time to try a certain model, therefore not rating at all and therefore implicitly coming up as zero-ratings in the appearance of a fun-factor rating.

@HJ1AN:
How much throttle did you use at take-off? I think, I use too much and lose control on the runway because of the higher torque.

@Radi:
So you have fun with such detailed aircrafts? Well, isn't that exactly what a fun rating would be for?
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Bomber » Thu May 29, 2014 2:39 pm

Oh and as an aide.... I'd also ensure that within the plane development forums there's a direct correlation between the rating system sections and the forum titles...
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Bomber » Thu May 29, 2014 2:41 pm

Arh yes and that reminds me.... 143 planes with no rating what-so-ever.

What's the process for getting these rated ?

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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby hvengel » Thu May 29, 2014 3:12 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Thu May 29, 2014 1:18 pm:@hvengel:
Personally, the P51D is a nice plane, I love it from an aesthetic point of view, but since I don't own a joystick, I can't fly it. Maybe I figure out how to do it with keyboard, maybe not. Actually, I would like to try, but I have currently a testflight over two days running, then some training rounds with the 747-8 freighter and thus ... it will take a little time. Which actually illuminates the real statistical problem: A small base set and users who hadn't even time to try a certain model, therefore not rating at all and therefore implicitly coming up as zero-ratings in the appearance of a fun-factor rating.

@HJ1AN:
How much throttle did you use at take-off? I think, I use too much and lose control on the runway because of the higher torque.


By the book and assumes that you can a full set of controllers. Setup is important so make sure your trims are set correctly but also expect the trim to change as the aircraft accelerates. Normal take off calls for bringing the power up to 40in initially while holding the stick full back. Going from idle to 40in should take perhaps 3 to 4 seconds. At around 55MPH indicated (probably about 6 seconds into the take off roll) gradually reduce back pressure and let the tail up. This is the most critical phase and it will want to go to the left as the tail comes up and it is sensitive to cross winds as well. In addition control authority is still marginal at these speeds. The more gradually the tail is lifted the easier it is to control. Once the tail is up increase power to 61in. Rotate between 130 and 150 indicated depending on weight and runway length. At lift off you will need to hold some right stick to pick up the left wheel. During the take off expect to hold some right rudder initially and to end up holding some left rudder at the point of rotation.

If I were to attempt this using a keyboard/mouse I would keep the power lower as it will take off nicely with as little as 30in to 35in. This will reduce both how fast things happen and how much correction will be needed when lifting the tail. But the take off run will be longer. I know that there are people who fly with a stick that take off using 35in and reports are that this makes things very easy to handle. Many currently flying IRL examples are almost never operated above 50in since this reduces operating costs but also allows operating on the typically available lower octane fuel.

The FDM is modeled on how this aircraft would have been setup on VE day so it is running 150 octane fuel and WEP is 80in (over 1800HP at sea level).
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby HJ1AN » Thu May 29, 2014 3:36 pm

Jabberwocky wrote in Thu May 29, 2014 1:18 pm:@HJ1AN:
How much throttle did you use at take-off? I think, I use too much and lose control on the runway because of the


Not full power I think. About 3 quarters throttle, possibly less. And you have to get ready the rudder and ailerons real quick. In short, have to be quick with the hands.

Try the Sopwith Camel :). The narrow landing gear combined with slow takeoff and heavy nose ensures that it will go off the runway, tip over one side and stand on its propellers faster than you can say 123
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby hvengel » Thu May 29, 2014 3:39 pm

Bomber wrote in Thu May 29, 2014 2:41 pm:Arh yes and that reminds me.... 143 planes with no rating what-so-ever.

What's the process for getting these rated ?

Simon.


It is the responsibility of the aircraft maintainer/developer if there is an active one. The rating system was specifically setup to be easy for the aircraft maintainer/developer to do because it assumes that the person doing the rating is very familiar with both the IRL aircraft specs and systems and knows how close the model is to those. I think most aircraft devs find that it takes 10 to 15 minutes to run through the process for the first time and as changes are made to the aircraft updated ratings only take a minute or two. It is possible for the third party to do the rating but it is a nontrivial undertaking for someone who is not intimately familiar with the IRL aircraft specs and the FDM that would require a lot of time and effort at least for any aircraft that was at a somewhat advanced state of development. Of course early development phase aircraft would be easier to rate since the criteria for those levels does not require so much aircraft specific knowledge. Some of those 143 aircraft are probably unmaintained and many of them are probably aircraft that will end up with lower ratings if they are rated.

I would expect the process to look like this:

1. Try to locate the maintainer by pinging the devel list and also asking here. If there is a maintainer nicely ask them to rate their aircraft.
2. If there is a maintainer but he/she is unable or unwilling to rate the aircraft ask permission to do the work. If you get permission then make the change and ask for it to be merged into fgdata.
3. If a maintainer can not be located or the aircraft is known to be abandoned do the rating and ask for the change to be merged into fgdata.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby bigstones » Thu May 29, 2014 3:58 pm

hvengel wrote in Thu May 29, 2014 3:39 pm:It is the responsibility of the aircraft maintainer/developer....

I'm sure you don't mind if I copy this to http://wiki.flightgear.org/Aircraft_rating_system
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu May 29, 2014 4:12 pm

The problem with keyboard control is, the controls don't go back to neutral. If you press a joystick lets say to the right, it comes back to the middle as soon as you let it. With a keyboard, you have to press actively left to come back to neutral. But to change that, the whole idea of how the keyboard is read by FG has to be changed. So as second best thing, the 5 key used in most aircrafts for setting all controls to neutral should set only ailerons and rudder to neutral. Just such an idea for keyboard fliers.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Bomber » Thu May 29, 2014 6:38 pm

So before I can rate a plane, like the heavy bombers.... That I have probably more data and knowledge than the original author I have to jump through those hoops ?

Think I'll pass...

I don't mind respecting the original author where it's due.... However..

How about putting a date by which all planes have to be rated or it's open season.....
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Hooray » Thu May 29, 2014 6:57 pm

right, I also don't quite agree that aircraft are only rated by their respective developers - if they're still around and maintaining their work, then things should obviously be approved by the original developer - otherwise, the idea of the rating system really was to invite ALL users to rate aircraft, an incomplete or inaccurate rating is not such a bad idea - because that may actually help motivate people to improve and maintain such a rating. When the system got originally introduced, we invited EVERYBODY to contribute ratings, and I think there's still newsletter passages that say something along those lines - and Stuart also keeps reminding people that this is a great way to contribute to the project.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Johan G » Thu May 29, 2014 7:57 pm

Bomber wrote in Thu May 29, 2014 12:48 pm:To me there seem to be 2 target audiences..

1) The user who wants to understand if the planes worth downloading.

2) The developer who wants to attract specialist developers to fill in the blanks.

You definitively have a point there. I'm not sure about you (and all the other), but I feel that the current rating system is quite ok for both uses.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby hvengel » Thu May 29, 2014 8:13 pm

I do agree that an inaccurate rating could motivate that original author to correct and maintain the rating. I also don't have an issue with users stepping up to rate aircraft that are currently unrated or that have clearly wrongs ratings.

Most of the unrated aircraft in git will likely be Alpha and Beta level and as I pointed out not very much aircraft specific knowledge or detailed flight testing is needed to rate this class of aircraft. Alpha and Beta class aircraft are particularly well suited to being rated by someone other than the developer. But as you move up to more advanced aircraft the amount of aircraft specific knowledge needed to properly rate the aircraft goes up exponentially and at the highest levels (aircraft with 4 or 5 level FDMs and systems) a person starting from scratch to gather the materials/data needed to do the evaluation and learn enough about the aircraft and then run tests to confirm the FDM and systems could be several hundred hours of effort rating a single aircraft. Not something an end user is likely to take on. Fortunately the aircraft that are this highly developed will always, baring someone dieing or something else catastrophic, have an active dev who will already have the domain knowledge and will have already run tests to confirm the FDM and systems long before getting to the rating process.

I would think that in cases where the original author has not bothered to rate the aircraft and where he/she has limited knowledge of the aircraft the original author is likely no where to be found or does not care enough to stand in the way of someone else rating it. On the other hand the "hoops" I listed are not particularly difficult to deal with. After all it was basically - try to work with the original author and if that does not work then just do it.

I would approach the dead line thing differently. Two possible approaches:

1. At some point we simply no longer display any info about unrated aircraft on the download page. If the authors want their aircraft on the download page they will either do the rating or ask someone to do it. This does two things for us:

A. It forces aircraft to be rated if the author wants it on the download page.

B. Gives aircraft devs a simple why to keep aircraft that are still in too early of a development state off the download page by either not having a rating section or by commenting it out. The current aircraft inventory has many aircraft that are not ready for even basic testing by users that should not be on the download page at all and I think many aircraft devs would take advantage of this.

2. The other way to deal with the dead line thing is to set all of the ratings for unrated aircraft to 0 when the dead line is reached and if the authors don't like it they can update the ratings for their aircraft.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Gijs » Thu May 29, 2014 9:06 pm

hvengel wrote:: At some point we simply no longer display any info about unrated aircraft on the download page.
This is basically what we do right now. Except that users can still opt to show all (including unrated) aircraft, by clicking one of the check boxes.
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Re: Aircraft Rating System

Postby Hooray » Thu May 29, 2014 9:16 pm

we could probably also require "early-production" aircraft to have a full rating.
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