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Aircraft of the Week / Month: IAR-80

Questions and discussion about creating aircraft. Flight dynamics, 3d models, cockpits, systems, animation, textures.

Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby zach » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:31 am

will the CRJ-700 be compatible with 2.4.0 ?
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby El Flauta » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:24 am

Thanks for made the Dromader review. It's a plane where the small team are doing their best effort to get a reallistic airplne... while we learn to do it on the way :)

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I'll take the opportunity to announce a new release in September or October, with a lot of improvements, mostly on the "Constant Speed Propeller" engine behavior and panel functionality, even including labels for each instrument.

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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby skyop » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:32 pm

zach wrote in Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:31 am:will the CRJ-700 be compatible with 2.4.0 ?


Yes, it already is. It will also be available on the official download page.
Aircraft: [ CRJ700-family | DC-10-30 ] Scenery: [ KBFL ]
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby Oscar » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:37 pm

Hey guys,

I decided to make a video review out of Thorsten's review, to bring these great aircraft to more people. This is the first time for me doing a video review like this.. Thanks of course to Thorsten's review and thanks to El Fauta for giving me more info about the Dromader and for sending the pictures. I hope you guys like it :wink:


Hehe you won't believe how many audio cuts are in here... That's why I missed the "pesticle" mistake :P
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby Trez » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:08 am

LOL THIS IS MAC SPEECH :D I ALWAYS LIKED MAC SPEECH :lol: MAKES ME LAUGH
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby F-VEBR » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:53 am

1 day too soon.... :D .... Wait right in time... (just saw the time of the message)

August 27 th 1976 - 1st flight of The PZL-Mielec M-18 Dromader

:roll:


Keep going... That's a beautiful job

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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby El Flauta » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:04 am

Nice coincidence, nice ephemeris :wink:

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Thanks for that review to the plane. We are very happy to see our work here!

However, you tested the in-development Firefighter config, not cropduster. Then, you dropped "water", not pesticide. The cropduster configuration was disabled for now, and will be added again in the next Dromader release...
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Dromader

Postby Oscar » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:07 am

Glad you liked it! Sorry I reviewed the firefighter model; I wasn't aware that there would be separate settings for water/pesticide.
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby Thorsten » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:49 am

Eurocopter EC-135

Model

The Eurocopter EC-135 comes with a very impressive 3d cockpit with photorealistic texturing - one example of very few aircraft in Flightgear.

Image

Unfortunately, many of the switches are not yet functional, and the procedures to start the engine are very simple. Some work on support for more detailed procedures would be beneficial for the helicopter. Nevertheless, the realistic looks of the cockpit create a very nice feeling of immersion into the simulation.

The exterior model, for which a variety of liveries are available, is likewise very impressive - it makes use of state-of-the-art reflection shaders and has animations for lights, the rotors and the doors.

Image


If the model crashes, the crash is also (partially) animated by showing the broken rotor blades.


Flight characteristics

Lacking any experience with any helicopter in reality, it is somewhat difficult to judge how well the FDM is done. Helicopters in Flightgear are not easy to fly due to the overall high degree of realism. However, compared with other models such as the Bo-105 or the R-22, the EC-135 handles certainly a bit easier and is a suitable helicopter for a beginner to learn the basics of helicopter flight. Also as compared to many other helicopters in Flightgear, the EC-135 has a rather powerful engine and can quickly climb vertically.

The model shows a lot of phenomena characteristic for helicopters: For instance, the rotors generate a lot more lift in forward flight than in hover flight, which needs to be compensated for when approaching for landing. In slow or hover flight, the EC-135 can swing like a pendulum under the rotor - this is a very nasty condition and difficult to deal with. The torque of the main rotor is clearly felt and must be compensated by the rear rotor, although this is not as tricky to balance as with other helicopters. The helicopter can easily be flown backwards or sidewards - it's however tricky not to lose control when doing so. Another interesting experience is to hover at high altitude, then reduce lift via the collective - the helicopter drops down rapidly, and one can observe the blades spinning up.

My personal wishlist

More functionality in the cockpit and more implemented procedures would be a very nice addition to the model.

Things to experience

There are plenty of heliports in the Flightgear world. One nice tour is to load the Vinson AI scenario, and, starting out from the carrier itself, visit its escort group (provided you don't mind that it's not a US Navy helicopter...). Most of the ships have a helipad where you can land and enjoy the view you usually don't get to appreciate. Also, many buildings have helipads on their roofs. It's somewhat tricky to land on such a tight spot, but it can be done, and usually results into a good feeling of accomplishment.
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby Groucho » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:32 am

Nice review, Thorsten.

One remark:

Thorsten wrote in Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:49 am:Eurocopter EC-135
Unfortunately, many of the switches are not yet functional, and the procedures to start the engine are very simple. Some work on support for more detailed procedures would be beneficial for the helicopter.
[...]
More functionality in the cockpit and more implemented procedures would be a very nice addition to the model.


The real helicopter uses FADEC, a digital engine control system which in fact takes care of spooling up the two turbines. So in reality there is not much more to do than pressing a button the same way as you press the spool up key in FlightGear.
If you don´t want that you can apply a manual startup procedure the same way as you can with the Bo105- start generators, set IDLE RPM, apply ignition, increase RPM, etc. for both engines separately. I don´t have the correct procedure at hand but it is possible. In reality you would not want to do that as FADEC does that for you except a few things you have to apply (set fuel leveler, disengage rotor brake, etc.) anyway.
However in general I agree that this could be done more realistic- the EC130 demontrates very well how this really works.

Some additional remarks to the EC135: Its blades start vibrating when the helicopter reaches approx. 140 knots which is the point where the tips reach sonic speed.
The helicopter is able to autorotate almost realistically, it has working doors and wipers and various liveries are available. Realism starts kicking in switching off engine 1 or 2 and then proceed the remaining flight with only one enging.
The EC135 is pretty soft to fly (for its weight) and good for beginners and the butt-o-meter is fully functional and a good aid in hover and straight flights for the not-so-experienced pilots (though not existing in the real one but real pilots have a real butt to get the feeling which we do not have 8) ).
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby HHS » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 pm

Hello Thorsten,

Thanks for the nice review though I am surprised that you took the older EC135 than the newer and in a lot of things better EC130 .

Some comments from me:

About the fdm:
Most of our helis seems to be underpowered, but I can't tell if some former changes of the atmosphere model is the reason for or wrong numbers for the airfoil. Unfortunately due to the missing realistic helicopter-engine support it will be anyway not 100% realistic *sigh*- anyway even the Ec135 is "underpowerd".
For the fdm I tried to follow the engineers of Eurocopter. The EC135 is the direct descandant of the Bo105, for which we have pretty good and detailed numbers and values. So Inertia tensors and behaviour of the CoG are pretty accurate. Especially the behaviour of the CoG behaves pretty much like described in the real manual.
But I made one big mistake on the fdm- I set wrong numbers for the rotor cant (I never was a genius in mathematics), which influences the attitude of the helicopter in hover a lot. And as I found out to my own surprise the real EC135 reacts much slower on cyclic inputs as I thought.
While the Bo105 will have 63% of maximum roll rate in about 0.14 sec., the Ec135 needs about 0.24 sec- I have changed both issues in my personal developement hangar. Anyway- some help from real pilots is always appreciated.

About the startup: this is taken from Melchiors Bo105. But this shows the very exact the Quickstart behaviour of the real EC135. When you switch both engine switches into flight position, Engine 1 will start up and when it reached 50% of N2, Engine 2 will started up as well. The same will happen on the BO105 and EC135 in FlightGear.

In some weeks I will begin slowly to finish the EC135, which means that I will replace the exterior model with a better and cleaner mesh, as the current one isn't the state of art. I want to add all the bells and whistles we have but try to make sure that it is fps-friendly as the EC130 currently is.
This will also mean that I will finish the cockpit and try to simulate the most important systems (quite similar to the EC130).


Thanks Thorsten for all the nice reviews - I think all aircraft developers appreciate it.
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby MOJO » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:54 pm

And nice to see that you are still part of the community Heiko! :D
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby Thorsten » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:35 pm

@Groucho, HHS:

Thanks for the additions and clarifications. Obviously I've never been in a real EC-135, but part of what I meant was something like - isn't there for instance an electrical system which you have to switch on before you press the start button? Or wouldn't one switch on the lights and strobe in the real thing? I guess you have a manual of the heli and can comment on that. In case it's really down to simply entering the cockpit and pressing a button, I'll take back what I wrote.


Thanks for the nice review though I am surprised that you took the older EC135 than the newer and in a lot of things better EC130 .


This may shock you :shock: , but even I haven't tried all 500+ aircraft in the repository (well yes, I actually have, but many of them for less than 20 seconds) - the reason I reviewed the EC-135 rather than the EC-130 is simply that I've never really flown the 130, and I just prefer to write about what I know a little better. I didn't imply any judgement of quality of one over the other (and I'll certainly have a look how the 130 is done now).
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby Pat70 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Hi guys,

Well, first of all, many thanks (warm thanks) to Thorsten for his reviews (and Oscar for now performing movies !!). Good choice for the EC135 even if some might have preferred a more fully developed (and also wonderful) heli like the EC130, i am still thinking that EC135 was a perfect choice. Even if not available in the basic package of FG , the version on the FG website is very good and used by many many pilots (have a look around KSFO some days and you might find 4-5 EC135 turning around). Each time i can ,i would (and i did and still do) recommend it as said Groucho for beginners, specially considering some other features (SAS/CAS system ) , easy to use Auto-trim (great feature , not only for beginners), a very good cockpit visibility and that GDSI (butt o meter indicator) that is a perfect tool for learning and training in hovering (my own opinion :) )
Thus, i would say that was a very good choice.

@HHS: Hi Heiko, nice to see you back , always a pleasure to know that you re always around and a pleasure to hear that you re going on in your wonderful developments ( i try to follow them in the GIT repository). Nice to learn that your going to improve the EC135, and i hope you will find time for your last baby the MBB BK117 (first release you did was really great as was your movie).

@Thorsten: jumping from one escort boat to another around the Vinson is really fun but beware !! they just sometimes disappear to relocate suddenly so as to follow the USS Vinson. Anyway thats a part of the challenge (if the USS vinson is going at low speed at least), and few Helis (even civilian on the deck is always so nice to see).

@Groucho: Are you sure about doors and Wipers ?? in the EC135, never find the way to make them work, a tip is welcome (i am using 2.0 and 2.4 version (sometimes only) with all download from official FG website).

And finally Many Many Thanks to Heiko for all his work, it brings me a lot of fun to fly BO105, huey, BK117, EC135, 130..and even if i wont have much time (not to say no time) in near future i will go on following your work and try to find free time to fly your creations.
Cheers
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Re: Aircraft of the Week / Month: Eurocopter EC-135

Postby HHS » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:26 pm

Thorsten,

Regarding the real EC135:
of course like any other aircraft there is a electrical system. Two generators, inverters, battery which provides the electrical energy needed. Without you can't run the fuel system with the boosters, fuel pumps and valves. And there is a hydraulical system, and the FADEC which must be powered up. And of course the avionics and other helping systems (SAS). And of course Anti-Collision lights are need as well as lights.
But once all is done it indeed needs just engaging two switches to automatically startup the engines.

You have to know that to startup a turboshaft engine without any help by FADEC isn't that easy and there is always the danger of destroying the engine (Hotstart). On older similar helicopters like Bo105 and BK117 A1/B2/C1 you have to press the starter button, wait until n2 increases and then carefully add some fuel. While doing this you have to carefully watch EGT and keep them below the limits. On the Bo105 you have to engage the ignition yourself, on the BK117 it is done automatically. Once the engine is running the lever must be carefully pushed forward into idle position- while carefully watching EGT. Too fast and you burn out the engine.
And after that the whole procedure is needed for the second engine as well.

On the EC135 this whole procedure is done by FADEC- just a simple engaging of a switch and FADEC spools up the engines automatically.

That means a pilot on the Bo105 needs both hands to startup one engine, on the BK117 A1/B2/C1 just one hand, and on the EC135 just one finger.

Btw: Thanks to Melchior the Bo105 can be started in FGFS without the magic Autostart, following the procedure described above. And not only that: And you can even adjust the power of each engine ("engine trim" and "power topping") like on the real heli. Was a very long time a FGFS-only feature! ;-)
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