Bell 412

[Thorsten]

IHAM has pushed a very nice point of view too:

Let's just say there's people who care about copyright issues and people who do not (the person you cite has been observed removing a copyright notice by a 3rd party in a commit on his repository for instance) - people who do care about copyright do not overly care for the opinion of those who make free with the work of others.

[StuartC]

Such an approval is not needed, as this has nothing to do with copyright - if there's a plane in reality, you can create a work of art from it (a painting, a photograph, a 3d mesh,...) without obtaining anyone's approval - depicting reality in a work of art is generally permitted.

A Quick word on that. Having been an official tester for a large games company in the past ( who will remain nameless ), one game under development contained various forms of the HUMVEE. GM got wind of it and demanded a licence fee or removal of the model. What ended up happening was the shape of the vehicle had certain areas changed so it resembled a HUMVEE, but compared to a real one, it wasn't. So legally it was not classed as a copy of the GM design.

[fb237]

As for removing files from git history, might be worth a quick read: https://git-scm.com/docs/git-filter-branch

Also note you would have to do a force push after that, and for those who have it git cloned would have to

Code: Select all

git fetch origin
git reset --hard origin/branch-name

[vslash]

@torsten: unfortunately, yourself infringes a lot of rules, but you will know this at the right time. Until now, nobody really care. Don't be so sure on things you don't seem to well known. A simple keyboard will not protect you on all the bad you and your friend makes. And you will know all consequences one day or other. For what ? Tell me. We know all here how CO disapproves the work of FGMembers, the work of all things that are not on your area of control, sometimes because it's simply better, sometimes because you have a real issue with what sharing means, what GPL means. This is the real background of all this mess. You and CO has such an ego on FG that every good dev. had leave the project. And FGFS perf. really sucks. Everybody could see that. It's simply bad. Bad dev, bad codes, bad framework. Do you want the list of authors that has disappears from sources ? Tell me one thing: where are the GPL licenses form from all 3rd party softwares you use ? Where are the author names, some have been completely wiped out from sources, vanished. Is that the way you think about GPL ? You delete some post here that don't fit your interest ? Is that fair ? Curt publish such a long papers telling to users to avoid FGMembers. Are you so nuts that you don't understand all illegal things you make here ? You fire some good dev guys just for your own pleasure and interest. And now you speak about honesty and fairness ? And now you want to give lessons to others ? My poor guy, you and curt and all of your suckers are so pathetic. You are very very bad guys, you will know, one day or other what happend to bad guys. Be sure of this. Make bad things, they will come back.
[EDIT] and everybody must know that I never ever granted the right to be on fgaddon, I never asked this, furthermore, I denied this to Curt when he asked me. All my work has been publish as NONGPL, and since 1 year it is CR to me. More simple to manage for me. So what's the point ? Did Curt ask me for something ? Never. Did Curt ask me friendly on this issue, tried to solve this privately and fairly ? Never. Did Curt stop to harass me sending me emails when I asked him many times ? Never. The only goal you want is to put every projects that don't fit you own interest down. You will know all of the consequences of this. Do you want to decay my work ? 2 years of passion, work and shares ? Be ready. Be really ready and aware of the next steps.

[gsagostinho]

@torsten: unfortunately, yourself infringes a lot of rules, but you will know this at the right time. Until now, nobody really care.

I am not aware of any copyright infringements by Thorsten. If you have any concrete proof of that, please be kind enough to share it with us.

Don't be so sure on things you don't seem to well known. A simple keyboard will not protect you on all the bad you and your friend makes. And you will know all consequences one day or other. [...] My poor guy, you and curt and all of your suckers are so pathetic. You are very very bad guys, you will know, one day or other what happend to bad guys. Be sure of this. Make bad things, they will come back. [...] ou will know all of the consequences of this. Do you want to decay my work ? 2 years of passion, work and shares ? Be ready. Be really ready and aware of the next steps.

You are crossing the line here, mate. These sort of threats to Thorsten and others have no place in this forum nor anywhere else on the internet. If anyone is hiding behind a keyboard then it is you with your threats of "consequences" to people in real life, and all of this because you don't seem to understand what GPL is, what copyright infringement is and what are the consequences of those. Your behaviour is at best childish and at worse sociopathic.

I would like to ask the forum moderators and admins to take a good look on the message above and act appropriately, I don't think this sort of behaviour is tolerable at all.

[vslash]

You're welcome.
It's a common way to people who charge with infamant remarks, threat them like Curt did it, charge them publicly, to become a victim.
Because you seem to be aware of all legal things, I don't see myself any threats here. It's pure reading, and, obviously, as you think yourself.
There's always consequences of trying to putting down the work of someone and threat him to denounce, complaint (DMCA and so on).
Do you think you can tell to a guy you don't even know that you want to denounce him, complaint to justice for your own interest without consequences for you ?
You put yourself over the laws. This is common for all bad guys.
And now, it's me that make threats ? Curt threat me and blackmail me and I'm a sociopath ?!!
Did I write such a long papers on the FG Team as Curt himself did it about FGMEMBERS ?
Is that sane ?
So funny.
Yes, I told you, always hard consequences with such an hard behavior. 100 more if possible.

I asked to CO many times to remove my account here, so please, do it. Pleasure is mine.

Ask yourself what line you crossed. Don't worry, I don't need any keyboard to protect me.
My name and address and clearly available on the internet, on my work, everywhere.

What about yours dude ?

Val.

[gsagostinho]

I asked to CO many times to remove my account here, so please, do it. Pleasure is mine.

That sounds just right to me as well.

Ask yourself what line you crossed. Don't worry, I don't need any keyboard to protect me.
My name and address and clearly available on the internet, on my work, everywhere.

What about yours dude ?

I, on the other hand, do not want thugs like you knocking on my door. Requesting a permanent ban for you right now.

[portreekid]

I, on the other hand, do not want thugs like you knocking on my door. Requesting a permanent ban for you right now.

+1 from me

[vslash]

I asked to CO many times to remove my account here, so please, do it. Pleasure is mine.

That sounds just right to me as well.

Ask yourself what line you crossed. Don't worry, I don't need any keyboard to protect me.
My name and address and clearly available on the internet, on my work, everywhere.

What about yours dude ?

I, on the other hand, do not want thugs like you knocking on my door. Requesting a permanent ban for you right now.

Of course, nothing to hide ... but yourself,

Good boy.
;o)

[bugman]

Valery Seys (vslash) needs to provide the licensing agreements he has to use the 3D mesh, textures, and sounds he has used. Without these, this is a clear case of property theft.

Here is a summary of what is clearly the case:

3D mesh

There are two 3D models available from 3D CAD Browser, the Bell 412:

3D CAD BROWSER - Bell 412 3D Model
3D CAD BROWSER - Bell 412 EP 3D Model

3D CAD Browser is cited as the source by Valery, but he has not identified which was used. Here the licensing is provided by the terms of service, and reproduced by Valery in the COPYRIGHTS_3RD_PARTY file he distributes. The relevant text is, with my emphasis:

Use of downloaded materials

All of the downloadable resources available in 3D CAD Browser catalog may be used free in your own or commercial projects. Downloaded resources may not be sold individually or provided for free to another parties.

Let me repeat: Downloaded resources may not be provided for free to another parties. Therefore using this without a licence agreement with the original author, and providing a helicopter to download is illegal. Valery has been repetitively asked to provide this licensing agreement and has repetitively not provided it. Without this, using this mesh is theft.

Textures

The textures are clearly taken from Cera Sim's Bell 412. This is very likely what is meant by:

- design : Blender and different meshes and textures from the web.

So probably directly taken from Cera Sim or from someone else who pirated it. Instead of producing a licensing agreement to show that the textures where not stolen, Valery has instead been slowly replacing the "stolen" textures.

Sounds

The sounds are stolen, period. For example, this is a source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGqUIGQqQss. This is licensed under the Standard YouTube License. This is governed by the YouTube terms of service. This allows YouTube to distribute the video. No copying or usage of any part of the video is allowed. To use these sounds, a written agreement with the original content creator is required.

Valery has not, will not, and cannot produce any of the licensing agreements required for his work to be legal.

Regards,
Edward


P. S. @hans05: You may not consider intellectual property theft and pirating as being serious, but it has no place here on the FlightGear forum. There is clearly theft involved here, with Valery not producing, unwilling to produce, and unable to produce any valid licensing agreements with the original authors. The ones he does provide clearly state that this is illegal. He was asked back in May 2016 about this, but after almost 2 years he has not provided his licenses.

EDIT: For information about the thread merger below, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29660&start=120#p328673.

[hans05]

The following post was locked:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29660&start=60

which is probably ok.
So I create this new topic because bugman/Edward imputes me to "not consider intellectual property theft and pirating as being serious" and I can not answer because it is locked....

Edward, please do not try to conclude things that you know nothing about. You do not know me and you do not have a clue how serious or not I consider IP violations!

Also you write "but it has no place here on the FlightGear forum". So you do not know what I think about IP violations but what ever it is: It has no place here on FG forum?!?! Seriously??

I have a strong opinion about the Valery case which I am not going to repeat here since I guess Valery could defend himself but probably does not care any longer, so not my business.

This is not my forum so I will not try to tell you guys how to run it. But I will still dare to state that to me, as being relatively new to this forum without background information, this makes a rather negative impression. Some of you are acting like the police (nothing against the REAL police, please do not misunderstand me ) and some of you seem stubborn and intolerant and impolite.
I emphasize: This is just my opinion, if opinions also do not have a place here on the FG forum then feel free to delete it.

Just please stop harassing me with false conclusions about what I think. Thanks!

[Thorsten]

This is not my forum so I will not try to tell you guys how to run it. But I will still dare to state that to me, as being relatively new to this forum without background information, this makes a rather negative impression. Some of you are acting like the police (nothing against the REAL police, please do not misunderstand me ) and some of you seem stubborn and intolerant and impolite.

Hans, if the only way to resolve copyright issues you find pleasant is to take what people say on faith value, you'll have a repository full of pirated material in no time even with everyone acting with the best intentions (simply because many contributors are simply not aware how licensing works). This kind of 'policing' you have witnessed is, while admittedly unpleasant, necessary if we want to create legitimate free software. And yeah, we're stubborn about that and have no tolerance for intellectual property theft.

As I've said elsewhere - we as committers are under a legal obligation to check stuff that gets submitted to the repository and Curt as forum admin is under an obligation to make sure the forum is not a hub for distributing pirated material - so there's even really not so much choice.

If you can't find that attitude acceptable, there's less brightly lit alleys in the internet where you can hang out (to borrow one of Curt's metaphors).

[curt]

Hi Hans,

I don't expect anyone else to fully understand, but it is hard to express in words how unpleasant and saddening this whole situation has been for me as well. We probably won't agree on the details, but for sure I agree with your topic title.

Best regards,

Curt.

[bugman]

In most cases here, the situation is quite different. When a copyright issue is identified, the content developer often doesn't realise it, admits the mistake and then makes efforts to resolve the IP violation. That has occurred on numerous occasions. Taking catalogue images for textures for gauges was a recent one that was resolved in a pleasant way.

For the case of the Bell 412 developments of vslash, the situation was rather different. This was due to the attitude of the developer. There were no efforts to stop his developments. The suggestions to join group developments with the FGUK Bell 412 was not to stop Valery from developing, but to work as a team to develop something better than what can be achieved by an individual developer. As a team, far more can be achieved. See the Space Shuttle, the It0uchpods Development Group's A32X, the Cessna 172P detailed, the Cessna 182S, and most things from the FGUK hangar for examples.

From the start of the Bell 412 project, it was clear that the situation with vslash was different, with questions about licensing and the FGUK Bell 412 being completely ignored. The README and COPYRIGHTS_3RD_PARTY files distributed by vslash clearly show a complete disregard for copyright law, pointing directly to the sources that were copied without a legal licence to copy them. Telling the lead developer of the FlightGear project, Curt Olson, to "f* off" in private was probably a turning point. It is pretty obvious that copying copyrighted content was perfectly fine for Valery, as the latest README file unambiguously states. Doing this does make it very easy to quickly create a great aircraft for FlightGear, but it is not legal. It is pirated content.

It is the advertisement of such pirated content that is not welcome here on the FlightGear forum. That can have severe legal consequences for the FlightGear project, in that the forum admins and moderators could be brought into a copyright infringement court case by the plaintiff. As mentioned at the start, most cases are resolved quickly and pleasantly here with the content developers having respect for copyright law. In this case though, the situation with Valery's attitude to copying copyrighted content was rather unique.

Regards,
Edward

[hans05]

@Thorsten:

Hans, if the only way to resolve copyright issues you find pleasant is to take what people say on faith value, you'll have a repository full of pirated material in no time

As far as I know, Valery's model is not in your repository. You have full rights to decide what goes into your rep and what does not, I have no problem with that.

This kind of 'policing' you have witnessed is, while admittedly unpleasant

I do not know how to explain this to you in a more simple and straight forward way than I have done, so I merely repeat myself and hope that maybe some other member of the forum understands what I am saying and translates it to Thorsten-language:
This is NOT about policies. You can have any policy you want (please only accept pink aircrafts if you wish!!). Also it is perfectly ok to tell people if they do not adhere to YOUR policy. But it is ALWAYS possible to do that in a polite and respectful way. And calling somebody a thief and criminal is TOTALLY different than telling somebody politely that s/he has done something which is not according to YOUR policy.

And yeah, we're stubborn about that and have no tolerance for intellectual property theft.

I disagree on that. You have a lot of tolerance for IP violence if you assume that you do not touch the aircraft producers IP-rights because you think that FG aircraft are pieces or art. FG is not a piece of art and your aircrafts are not pieces of art.
According to your own policy for protecting model meshes, you would have to ask every producer if they have registered a trademark (e.g. for the name of the aircraft) a design right (in Germany) or Industrial Design Right (in many other countries) and whether or not it would be ok to use their product in FG. BEFORE you start working on the model. How many of the devs do that?
So again: Please stop teaching me about IP-rights and what is right or wrong about it. I am not a lawyer but I had my share of dealing with IP so I am not totally naive in the topic.

If you can't find that attitude acceptable, there's less brightly lit alleys in the internet where you can hang out (to borrow one of Curt's metaphors).

Please STOP implying that I am looking for less brightly lit alleys. You have no idea what I am looking for. You do not know me so please STOP judging me and putting me in places where I do not belong and I do not want to be. Some people call what you do here "bullying". STOP that!
You can always express your opinion about me, but please to not conclude what I think, want or feel!

@Curt:

I don't expect anyone else to fully understand, but it is hard to express in words how unpleasant and saddening this whole situation has been for me as well. We probably won't agree on the details, but for sure I agree with your topic title.

Thanks for this comment! This is polite, not arrogant and respectful, I am happy about that