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Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby J Maverick 16 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:49 pm

It's the same guy that a few years ago completely trashed FlightGear and got a whole bunch of critics for doing it in another video here for those who didn't see it:



Well, at least this time he actually tried instead of just messing around.
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Hooray » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:52 pm

Depending on the audience, it's not all that bad - obviously people with a long-term background contributing to FlightGear have a very different perspective, but they are also unlikely to benefit from a review.
A typical review will target MSFS/XP end-users, and sometimes real/former pilots.

So, if you are primarily interested in flight simulation as a hobby or to use a flight simulator to become a pilot, maintain proficiency or simply remember old times, FlightGear is unlikely to be particularly appealing for a plethora of reasons.

I would consider myself pretty familiar with FlightGear, and I have flown real aircraft (small ones) in the past, but if I wanted to obtain a rating or maintain proficiency, I honestly would not recommend to use FlightGear for that (unless the person in question is already someone with a background in software engineering or a someone with a tinkerer's mindset)- Personally, I'd rather go with X-Plane or purchase a commercial product like something from ELITE, Jeppesen or oddsoft (for IFR).

Obviously, it depends on the kind of flying you're interested in, i.e. FlightGear MAY suffice for people interested in experimental, ultralight aircraft or gliders/TMG - and maybe to some extent even basic GA (VFR), especially because some aircraft are well-developed (i.e. the c172p) - but sooner or later, FlightGear's limitations are becoming rather obvious - and it's much easier to pay 50-100 products to get a polished product that is suitable to be used for something like maintaining an IFR-ME rating.

In other words, no offense to FlightGear or the people involved in contributing to it, but whenever someone external to the project is reviewing FlightGear, it's obviously going to be colored by their background/interests - and the typical flight sim enthusiasts simply doesn't have a master's degree in CS, maths or physics - many end-users willing to pay for a product like MFSF or XP are likely to have once toyed with the idea of becoming commercial pilots, or even ATPs - they don't want a toolbox with a plethora of features, they want something polished that works out of the box - something that doesn't need to be compiled/customized to even just work.

Many of these people want "adventures & missions", i.e. they're interested in "gaming" aspects of a flight simulator, and the more serious ones actually want vATC integration, flight plans, systems modeling, failures and the whole shebang

Thus, it simply isn't reasonable to "compete" with such products, nor is it feasible for FlightGear to compete for such end-users, it's going to be more pain than gain - the introduction of the multiplayer system into FlightGear is a long-standing testimony to that.

It's worth keeping this in mind whenever long-term contributors are dissecting a FlightGear review, just because someone is looking at FlightGear without a background in contributing for 10+ years. Most flight sim users have neither the time nor the inclination to get involved in the development/maintenance of such a work-in-progress, they'd rather part with 50-100 bucks every couple of years, and be done with it. Which should be acceptable to the opposite camp of people, i.e. those who don't mind spending hundreds of hours contributing to FlightGear over the course of many years.

Obviously, with developments like graphical front-ends, GUI launchers, a working release cycle (binaries which people don't have to compile themselves) and the multiplayer system, the learning curve is getting lower and lower for newcomers, so that more and more people with a MFSS/XP background may check out FlightGear sooner or later, some of whom may even roll up their sleeves and do a review - nevertheless, we're deluding ourselves by providing a UI launcher, a translated UI or even the equivalent of a "LTS" version: FlightGear as a project simply cannot compete with the likes of MSFS/XP, and it shouldn't even be trying to for a plethora of reasons - whenever the barrier to entry is lowered, newcomers will inevitably show up and point out the "deficiencies" they see given their backgrounds - a polished look and feel (on the surface) will just add to the confusion.
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:11 pm

the more serious ones actually want vATC integration, flight plans, systems modeling, failures and the whole shebang


You mean, like we have? :)
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Hooray » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:14 pm

nope, more along the lines of Aerowinx PS1 and the likes
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:19 pm

We do have all those features :lol:
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Johan G » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:35 am

Some posts were split off to the new topic Updating navigation data (*.dat files).
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Thorsten » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:30 am

In my opinion it revealed that the reviewer didn't know much about flight sims in general and even less about FG and its capabilities and strengths. That is really my whole point.


Well, that's certainly true.

First, you need a theme for the review - what are you looking for? Obviously someone interested in gaming is going to see the Concorde in a different light than someone interested in realism - for the first it's tedious with poor graphics, for the second it's really nicely detailed.

Then you need more than a passing familiarity - I'd say you need to be around any flightsim least a few months if you're familiar with simulations in general before you can form an educated opinion - if you come from FSX, an afternoon with FG will reveal that nothing works as you're used to and vice versa - that's certainly going to annoy you and color any opinion (and you mght simply not find the option you're looking for and conclude wrongly that it isn't there).

Then it's a question of use case - are you interested in scenic flights? Airliners? Helicopters? The widest possible variety of craft? Training on a specific craft?

For instance if you're trying to supplement real-life training on a particular aircraft with a sim, in FG it matters a lot what aircraft that would be - some deliver rather realistic results, others... well... do not.

If you'd like to fly the EC-135 in Hawaii, I'd say that FG can certainly deliver - if you prefer the Me-262 somewhere in Siberia, the scenery is going to look awful and the plane won't meet your expectations.

So... what is a reasonable standard of comparison in the end?
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby montagdude » Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:26 pm

The average simmer reviewing a new sim is probably going to be strongly influenced by the overall ease of use and polish. That's probably why FlightGear often gets portrayed in a negative light in reviews. It would be a good idea for an actual FlightGear user to do an in-depth review some time, including a discussion of where to find the most detailed aircraft, improved scenery, etc.
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Thorsten » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:39 pm

It would be a good idea for an actual FlightGear user to do an in-depth review some time, including a discussion of where to find the most detailed aircraft, improved scenery, etc.


We have about a dozen FG features out (not on YouTube, granted), but I've written quite a few FG features for flightsim.com, supposedly each read by ~10.000 people (I honestly don't think I can write a fair FG review or compare with other sims, I know way too much about FG for that).

So... it's not like this wouldn't happen, but the impact isn't what you people imagine.
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby montagdude » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:15 pm

Thorsten wrote in Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:39 pm:
It would be a good idea for an actual FlightGear user to do an in-depth review some time, including a discussion of where to find the most detailed aircraft, improved scenery, etc.


We have about a dozen FG features out (not on YouTube, granted), but I've written quite a few FG features for flightsim.com, supposedly each read by ~10.000 people (I honestly don't think I can write a fair FG review or compare with other sims, I know way too much about FG for that).

So... it's not like this wouldn't happen, but the impact isn't what you people imagine.

Who is "you people?" I didn't say anything about impact, just that it would be a good idea idea. But regarding the impact, it would probably be mainly dependent on how much of a following the reviewer had. I know I don't have a big following on YouTube, so if I did it, the impact would surely be approximately 0. :D
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Thorsten » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:01 am

Who is "you people?"


Anyone who writes forum posts suggesting that FG should be advertized more (should get a detailed review,...) - I don't keep tabs on who ever wrote that, but it's a lot of people.

But regarding the impact, it would probably be mainly dependent on how much of a following the reviewer had.


I just told you that it's about 10.000 readers on flightsim. com and earlier that it's 13.500 Facebook followers. So we sort of know that as well.
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We, the people :-)

Postby Hooray » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:03 pm

advertising FlightGear in order to attract more end users is just opening a new can of worms.

If anything, it makes more sense to attract to potential contributors, i.e. DIY-ers - people who are tinkerers. The kind of people that don't mind rolling up their sleeves and look behind the scenes.

That means, hobbyists (RCs), UAV folks, embedded hardware folks (Raspbian etc) - and then obviously people with a background in coding or 3d modeling/texturing.

Professional contributors are most likely to be interested in FlightGear once you bring key features to the table, i.e. stuff like HLA/RTI, DIS, CIGI, ARINC - until then, you need the kind of hobby-tinkerer mindset that potential contributors bring to the table. In other words, people who don't mind editing configuration files, and who are not afraid of dabbling with XML or scripting.

Also, it would not be such a bad idea to once and for all recognize that it's long overdue to rejuvenate the project - many of the key folks of the project are no longer actively involved in FlightGear - yet, many of the seasoned veteran contributors fail to recognize at what times in the lives/careers they stood when they were actively in the project. So, there's a "sweep spot" to be identified here - at least when trying to attract non-professionals, i.e. people who are still just in the process of graduating school/college, people with plenty of time on their hands, and with the mental capacity to learn new stuff each day.

And it's not unheard of in other projects, too:

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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Sir Privat » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:44 pm

Found the style of the video a bit off putting , a bit immature .
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Re: Swiss001 YouTube video about FlightGear

Postby Delta5142 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:25 pm

Well, most of his viewers are just six year olds who play infinite flight all the time, so who cares. Of course flightgear is an amazing simulator, and he doesn't know how to get the most of it
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