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Boom

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Re: Boom

Postby Isaak » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:54 am

Sad to see that yet again this is the FG community at it's best. I don't have an opinion in this discussion as I don't know what made Josh leave and I'm not interested in finding it out, but please, all of you, agree to disagree and put your energy in something useful for yourself or the community instead of shouting at each other. I'm looking forward to meeting a lot of FG people again at FSweekend in 2 weeks, sometimes with different opinions, but always respectful and driven to move forward with the project. Glad we don't insult each other there, it would be good practice to behave likewise behind a pc screen.
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Re: Boom

Postby Thorsten » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:17 am

Why you all counts yourselves as the people who did nothing to this man and he is leaving because he whants to?


Because we (unlike probably you) read what Josh has written and take it seriously. In his own words:

Also, I really wish you all would stop assuming that I am "thinking about the current actions of others" as that's really a big pile of crap. I make my decisions based on my own thoughts, thank you.


So he tells us in plain words that we should not assume things about 'actions of others' and that he makes his own decisions. What problem exactly do you have with that?
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Re: Boom

Postby xpdr_on » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:02 pm

And what positive outcome do you hope to achieve by continuing to post? Because so far, you are not building bridges, not gaining much sympathy and this community does not care much about your preaching, so your role here is puzzling. But if that is what you wish, then please continue to enlighten us with your wisdom.


Since when you are a community???
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Re: Boom

Postby xpdr_on » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm

Because we (unlike probably you) read what Josh has written and take it seriously


He personally told me that you are one of the people here that create toxic enviroment. So how about that, ha, Thorsten?
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Re: Boom

Postby CaptB » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:18 pm

xpdr_on wrote in Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:02 pm:Since when you are a community???


Ok, I can drag this from now to eternity.

If you mean personally, well I have been here for a long time, and let's just say I have been working on the 3D model of the IDG A320(unreleased) and also worked on some MD-11 3D(released) related corrections so I indeed count myself as a (humble) part of the community.

If you mean the broad sense of community, well, at least here on the forum, you are not getting a lot of positive feedback for your post, hence I assume that the community here either does not agree with you or does not care.

Now, please enlighten me please, who are you and what have you done here so far except for ranting?
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Re: Boom

Postby Octal450 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Thorsten isn't really a problem. Sometimes he annoys the hell out of me, other times his posts are very useful and enjoyable. This is true for most users.

Its also FALSE that I left because I lost interest in GPL. I would have just dual licensed the aircraft. I lost interest because it seems that Core was caring less, they still want most people using a nearly 1 year old version, which has big bugs. In addition to so many toxic users here, and the general attitude I just kinda stopped caring. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, I'm just being truthful.

Actually merspieler you don't understand. We said don't put so much code into the MODEL XML files, use Nasal instead, or JSBsim XML. There are different types of XML, and you just argued and made havok.

Kind Regards,
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Re: Boom

Postby Thorsten » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:00 pm

So how about that, ha, Thorsten?


If we must... *sigh*

There's a pattern to all of this.

* a controversy happens in the forum - as it is occasionally the case.

* a user with no prior activity history steps in and picks exactly the topic with the controversy to make an appearance

* the first 1-2 posts of that user are sort of harmless, but then he posts progressively more controversial (and off the main track of the original discussion) - in this particular case we get the rather odd statements that 'we must fire back at payware or else' and 'FG sucks'

* when others disagree with the progressively more controversial strategy, the user claims to be 'abused' - which takes the topic further away from the original discussion

* in what follows, the user (with no prior forum activity!) claims to be quite knowledgeable about 'what users really want' and about 'what contributors really think' - one wonders where that knowledge comes from...

* similarly, the user speaks of 'we' and 'the community' vs 'the developers who do not care' and so on.

* the topic quickly is developed into a general accusation against FG developers and 'the general structure of the project', occasionally some people (I feature quite frequently) who are allegedly oppressing the community and driving good people away - when asked, no real example of the alleged oppression can be given (in the event, Pavlin S. is almost a classic - he's portrayed as some key figure whereas in actual reality as far as I can see, he was a FG user who liked to fly long-haul airliners under AP and posted occasionally videos - I've spoken to him on pretty much only a single occasion where I told him that I don't find a 2 minute video of an airplane over water particularly exciting - allegedly that conversation made him give up FG... ). One wonders again where a forum newcomer might have all that information...

* at this point, the new forum user is likely quite satisfied because now he can accuse others of being off-topic and disrespectful, not to mention the alleged abuse - and the first people who have no idea what this is about step in and might actually muddle things more.

The point of all this? It has the hallmarks of a classic troll attack - use a controversy, widen the rift, enrage users about 'those in power', be ever-vague about the actual events people get accused of, because something will always stick.

We've had the same pattern in this very forum (including the gripping Pavlin S story) not so long ago, and there've been incidents before. Shall we bet if moderation looks up the new users' email address it will turn out to be quite recent and not linked to a verifiable website or institution?
Last edited by Thorsten on Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boom

Postby D-ECHO » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:03 pm

Considering myself also falling for either the tactic or the development, I have to say sorry for taking the thread even more off-topic.
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Re: Boom

Postby Thorsten » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:06 pm

I lost interest because it seems that Core was caring less, they still want most people using a nearly 1 year old version, which has big bugs.


FWIW, 2019.1.1 is out since quite a while now and is the thing linked from the main download page.
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Re: Boom

Postby Octal450 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:12 pm

Last I heard, you all didn't want most people using that because it was "unstable"

Kind Regards,
Josh
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Re: Boom

Postby Thorsten » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:24 pm

'We all' hardly exist. We're trying out the concept of LTS (long term stable) vs. technical point releases because we couldn't get enough people to test release candidates. That was a decision reached after hearing pros and cons, and you'll find people against the scheme just as well. There's no homogeneous block of developers, there's a bunch of people with different ideas who sit together and have to reach decisions - and (sometimes grudgingly) live with the outcome of discussions.

But I'd argue that making a release the default download doesn't imply that 'we' don't want people to use it. Of course we do - they're supposed to use it so that we can get feedback.
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Re: Boom

Postby Icecode GL » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:37 pm

Developing unofficial mods for commercial software (i.e. what you plan to do with P3D) is usually much worse in that regard. If you are annoyed by how the core team manages FG versions, I can't imagine the amount of trouble you are about to face. Complete reworks of core systems without any notifications at all, new features that break older ones, bugs that stay unfixed for months... all without a mail list to post complaints to.
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Re: Boom

Postby wlbragg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:45 pm

I was just reading another thread that is of the revolving door type and was composing a somewhat lengthy diatribe, but when I got to the end I found myself typing the words troll and trolling. As soon as I realized that I decided against it and moved on. Amazing, at least I have some validation that my mind might still be in the correct hemisphere.

Josh, I hope you take away from all of this that most of us do care about your well being and do wish you only good things and happiness. There is always going to be controversy and as we have discussed in the past, our bottom line here is its supposed to be fun and rewarding to ones self. If it is no longer fun or rewarding...
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Re: Boom

Postby hans05 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:49 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:32 am:Hans - just try making a positive contribution to something in this forum. :D


I assume you also have the world standard as for what is a "positive contribution" to anything. Therefore I probably have no chance of achieving that.
To my own utterly inferior standard of positive contribution, I have tried many times. Never passed your world-standard-of-positive-contribution-filter.

So I restrict myself to eating popcorn while reading this thread and pointing out how this fits to the never ending list of this forum putting people down when they dare say anything negative about FG. What's not to like about that :-)
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Re: Boom

Postby hans05 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:53 pm

Richard wrote in Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:53 am:Josh has made some very valid points about problems inherent with the GPL from his perspective so can we just accept his view and move on without all of the pontification and pointless arguing.

As a community we should all be very grateful for the thousands of hours of hard work that he's put into many aircraft and support his decision to stop developing on FG and possibly move to a new platform.


And again Richard shows with ease how respectful and tolerant works.
Richard, keep it up!
(wow, no need for irony or sarcasm here :-))
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