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It's No Moon

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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 7:17 am

That message looked reasonable to me. While my answer was not from spam bot surely, wasn't it?

Anyway, from some point of view people here, moderators including, are just representatives of social forces - as rough, as many people are at these forces, and few people are representing them. Deleting my message by handy reason is more or less same as blocking Russian TV at some countries by handy reasons.

If mankind in its current state could make Moon flight again, it would be made previous year most probably, as it was planned at beginning of this century. That did not, it means that can not, while we, with our efforts to model that flight, or to not model that flight, are just social model of how.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 7:24 am

Hey vitos,
I kind of find this some mix of entertaining and interesting, so I'm going to reply, even though in my opinion it might lead to nothing (in the end, that's what hangar talk is for).

First of all, your messages are _really_ hard to understand. I don't know whether it's the language barrier and I don't want to blame you for it, just as an idea: When language barrier is a problem, trying to formulate things in an easy-as-possible way might help others to understand, not necessarily because we're all dumbasses, but more because a lot of the original meaning gets "lost in translation".

From what I understand, your point seems to be that the FG community mirrors a socialist society and that's why no moon flight being possible in FG has similar reasons to moon flight not having been completed by the UdSSR, is that correct? As misunderstanding seems pretty probable, I'd like to clear this upfront, so we don't end up in a situation where everyone argues about something that isn't even what the communication partner meant in the first place.

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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 7:42 am

Yes, sort of.

Not purely socialistic society, though, as some people here are driven by sort of national pride more than by GPL ideas, seems to be. Some other should have some other reasons, dunno.

Anyway, I don't believe in idea of "just making fun" much. Just making fun should be short-time thing, while some people here had spent thousands of work hours at this. Me including.

It's partly later USSR model, as core looks same for years, same as it was with growing old party leaders. But it's not later USSR model only, it's model of current mankind partially, too.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 7:44 am

Answer one question for me though, please, and please be honest. Do you just want to hate on the people here and say how shit everything is or are you interested in honest criticism of your theory?
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 8:08 am

Look, I spent at my models a huge amount of efforts, and reaction at these cost me nerves - three times in a row, each time with more efforts and more improbable reaction from my point of view.

If I was about hate, then I would rage quit immediately after my MiG-15 was not treated way I meant, and would never ever return, or would return, You know, with some computer virus. Heh.

As of criticism - well, look, I started that space stuff modeling here with "Vostok-1" model, with Moon flight modeling in mind, same time when plans of putting man at Moon again was revealed.

So, You may disagree, but still these two facts - that this simulator theoretically could be modded to put man at Moon virtually; or some open-source space flight simulator gould arise; and what current mankind could theoretically put man at Moon again really, but both changes had't occur for decade at least, are looking quite similar.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 8:12 am

I can't really find an answer in your post, I'm afraid. I don't want to spend time writing things up that are not wanted at all, in my opinion, it would be quite a simple question - Do you want criticism, do you want to discuss about your theory (option 1 ;) ) or do you want whatever else (option 2 ;P )
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 8:15 am

Discussion is way to mutual comprehending, is't it? If You mean comprehending from Your side too, why not, we can discuss it.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 8:34 am

Of course discussion is about mutual understanding.

My problem with your theory is these, in my opinion major, differences:
1. the system: as others have already pointed out before, there is a crucial difference between the system of the UdSSR and the one of an open-source project generally or specifically FlightGear. Upon others, there is no central institution of government and thus no guideline on what "should be done". Also, within reasonable borders, everybody is able to speak out his or her mind freely. Additionally, nobody is forced to do anything at all (basically)
2. what happened: as far as I understood your history lesson ;) basically this happened in the UdSSR:
*) the government wanted to fly to the moon, so they instructed different design bureaus to develop concepts
*) different engineers couldn't agree on one solution, the concepts were, as it was called, "shotgun married", which didnt work out. Additional factors seem to have been a lack of funding among others
Now, as I see things, already on the first step we have a major difference: There seems to be little to no interest in FG to fly to the moon - that's it.
3. the reason things didn't work out (personal opinion):
* for the UdSSR, as mentioned above
* for FG, well, there is noone who does it. There seems to be at least one person, you, interested in using it for whatever reason, but you didn't implement it and thus it doesn't exist. I have yet to see many other people at all that are interested in it, let alone capable developers interested in it

About the facts you stated above:
1. I, with my limited technical knowledge of FG's internals, agree that it seems to be possible to modify/adapt/expand FG in a way that it could fly to the moon - or an open-source space simulator could arise
2. Mankind could have "put a man (woman as well) on the moon" again, given that it already happened I think it's safe to say this is possible
Thinking about it now, I actually do see a similarity between both, to me the basic reason why neither has happened yet is the lack of interest. I don't mean the general lack of interest, there are for sure many people excited about humans going to the moon for whatever reasons, but the lack of interest where it matters, i.e. on the scientific side (as it stands, there doesn't really seem to be a reason to go the moon at all) and as well not a sufficient interest in the general public to elect politicians who as an agenda push "hard enough" on making a new moon program happen. Looking at this from FG's side, lack of interest in those that would be capable of investing the required time and coding the required code seems to be the central reason as well.

I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts about this.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am

1) Upon others, there is no central institution of government and thus no guideline on what "should be done".

Just couple of messages up, You would see mentioning that my message was removed from topic. Could You restore that removed message? Or, say, to open my "Vostok-1" topic, closed by moderator permanently? Me not.

Also, can't remember at that topic, but at others You may find noticing about "core contributors" for sure. Which are more equal than contributors - as I can remember, just anyone could not add something into common code here.

2) Now, as I see things, already on the first step we have a major difference: There seems to be little to no interest in FG to fly to the moon - that's it.

USSR officially rejected own man Moon flight program attempts up to USSR collapse. So any party functionary would say to You that no-one interested in risky and expensive Moon flight at USSR.

3) There seems to be at least one person, you, interested in using it for whatever reason, but you didn't implement it and thus it doesn't exist.

Changes to be made are just too big for one man, and history of some other comparable attempts, as new terrain engine, which one man could put to demonstration state only, is quite enough to me not to put my sole efforts into this. Quite same as anyone else, I suppose... Oh, not the same, plus history of my own projects.

As of new simulator - at least comparable efforts are needed.

4) 1. I, with my limited technical knowledge of FG's internals, agree that it seems to be possible to modify/adapt/expand FG in a way that it could fly to the moon - or an open-source space simulator could arise
2. Mankind could have "put a man (woman as well) on the moon" again, given that it already happened I think it's safe to say this is possible

Theoretically possible does not mean possible really.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Gijs » Sun May 10, 2020 9:16 am

Hi Vitos,

Just to comment on the removal of your post yesterday. It was a direct reply to a spam post. The spam post was removed, and thus your post made no sense any more. Leaving it there would've been far more confusing than removing it. We do that all the time with spam posts (and replies to them), not just with your post. That's all.

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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 9:24 am

I sincerely do believe than no-one here has anything against me personally, and my country in all of her incarnations.

Anyway, I spent my efforts already at projects, topics of which was permanently closed, and do not have any more serious resources to create something with that simulator or its community.

So, let's get back to discussion, it's not personal... If someone would wish to dispute, of course.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 9:31 am

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am:Just couple of messages up, You would see mentioning that my message was removed from topic. Could You restore that removed message? Or, say, to open my "Vostok-1" topic, closed by moderator permanently? Me not.

About the message removed, see above, this has nothing at all to do with censorship. Same with the Vostok topic, upon a first look, it has degenerated into a non-productive "flame-war", and even you yourself called to "finish here". In this light, I agree with the moderators that it was necessary to close this topic to maintain a productive environment. Nobody prevents you at all from making a new topic about the Vostok, so again, no censorship etc. - in my opinion.
vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am:Also, can't remember at that topic, but at others You may find noticing about "core contributors" for sure. Which are more equal than contributors - as I can remember, just anyone could not add something into common code here.

Of course there are those that have commit/push access to the flightgear core and those who don't - there is no sensible system in which this can be prevented (again, in my opinion - if you have a suggestion for such a system please go ahead!). An important difference is that they can't and don't decide what people work on - and even to what changes are public, everybody can fork flightgear and if the contribution is good, either it will be accepted into the core, or, if people like it more, they will switch away from FG to the fork. A free market - the opposite of a socialistic system - at its best.

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am:USSR officially rejected own man Moon flight program attempts up to USSR collapse. So any party functionary would say to You that no-one interested in risky and expensive Moon flight at USSR.

Out of curiosity, was really everything that is in this article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_cr ... r_programs) denied by the government? In case it is so, there would still be a major difference: FG never started a moon program, whereas the UdSSR started one but kept it secret/denied it, that's definitely not the same.

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am:Changes to be made are just too big for one man, and history of some other comparable attempts, as new terrain engine, which one man could put to demonstration state only, is quite enough to me not to put my sole efforts into this. Quite same as anyone else, I suppose... Oh, not the same, plus history of my own projects.

As of new simulator - at least comparable efforts are needed.

I can't say whether this is the case or not, but if it was, the situation would be: You wanted something and couln't do it alone, but you weren't able to convince anyone else (capable) of helping you, so still - lack of interest.

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 8:50 am:Theoretically possible does not mean possible really.

Did I claim it does mean that? If I did, let me correct myself: It is _theoretically_ possible :D
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 am

and even you yourself called to "finish here"


I called to finish insulting me, not to close my topic.

I agree with the moderators that it was necessary to close this topic to maintain a productive environment.


I do see it other way - if it was topic of some "core developer" then some loose mouths would be shut, while topic would remain.

An important difference is that they can't and don't decide what people work on


Yeah, anyone would work hard at thing which would never be included.

FG never started a moon program


How would You know? Not so many people knew for sure about Soviet Moon program at USSR itself.

if people like it more, they will switch away from FG to the fork


Sill no examples of that.

It is _theoretically_ possible :D


Yep, and here we returning to initial point - it's developable theoretically. Same as real manned Moon flight at now.
Last edited by vitos on Sun May 10, 2020 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby D-ECHO » Sun May 10, 2020 10:00 am

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 am:I called to finish insulting me, not to close my topic.

I actually think it was understood in another way.

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 am:I do see it other way - if it was topic of some "core developer" then some loose mouths would be shut, while topic would remain.

Nobody made you "shut up", you can obviously still express your opinion as long as it adheres to the forum rules. If you want to talk about the Vostok, all you needed to do was to press "New Topic".

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 am:Yeah, anyone would work hard at thing which would never be included.

Again - what is the alternative? How should access to the core of flightgear be controlled?

vitos wrote in Sun May 10, 2020 9:50 am:How would You know? Not so many people knew for sure about Soviet Moon program at USSR itself.

I am genuinely sorry, but this doesn't really make sense to me at the moment. Have you started one? Then you would know. Else, there is no reason or even indication/clue why there should have been a secret moon program.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun May 10, 2020 10:08 am

If you want to talk about the Vostok, all you needed to do was to press "New Topic".


I would not do that. To me is enough that first one was closed, and then Shuttle arized, with help instead of insults.

I do not repeat same twice. Instead, I changed area, trying to get something positive out of situation that someone shooting at me at mp with missile of plane which is part of core, and had more or less same result with Su-15/MPClash, which is enough for me completely.

Again - what is the alternative? How should access to the core of flightgear be controlled?


Well, I just objected Your sentence that here is no form of government. Here is - moderator could remove Your message or close Your topic, core developer could deny to include Your improvement, and I seen both stories here, even participated at some.

Have you started one?


Not, I would't. As of others - we know that USSR denied Moon attempts, so same could be here if that is of same sort. It does not contradict my view.
Last edited by vitos on Sun May 10, 2020 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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