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It's No Moon

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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:11 am

But if that person put something into code really - efforts, time, money, name it - then person is not satisfied with such perspective, and starts trying to find a way to make code to become non-alienable, thus quasi-opened - not documented, including hidden tricks, etc.


Why license the code GPL in the first place then and not make a proprietary code? Sounds a bit complicated to me... Maybe that's what you like to do (your code is very opaque), but it's not the normal state of affairs.

which is clearly proved by fact whole Open Source did not produced any real spaceflight simulator yet.


Let me point you for instance to GMAT - which is about as real as it gets, because it is used to simulate real missions in the design phase.

You shouldn't equate 'FG' with 'Open Source' and you should not equate 'real simulator' with 'exactly the simulator I have in mind'.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:29 am

Why just that simulator is not proprietary - well, most probably by same reason as USSR was not capitalistic country: at moment it was formed most citizens of it had almost nothing to lose and hated small amount of ones who had, so socialism was proclaimed. But when they got that something, gradually, one way or another, so USSR gradually degraded by "yes means not" way to moment yes became not clearly, then it broke up and socialistic idea was abandoned.

As of NASA Open Source stuff - link is just link; USSR returned Moon soil automatically fully at 1970 by the way; at 1969 same apparatus hit unplanned mountain because of tens of kilometres mistake, which would not be deal if Moon was flat sphere. Try to land at virtual Moon with it at Your computer, simulating manned flight.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:00 am

As of NASA Open Source stuff - link is just link;


That is just silly - you know how to follow a link and download and install stuff.

Try to land at virtual Moon with it at Your computer, simulating manned flight.


Try simulating zero-g at your computer, simulating the experience of being in space. You claimed that there's no real spaceflight simulation in OpenSource, there it is, as real as it gets.

You'll always be able to point at something that's not there - if you look at Micro$oft Space Simulator, that's not really realistic in its dynamics in the first place, so I dare say you'll have trouble finding a commercial code that meets your precise standards just the same.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:03 am

I said there is no Open Source simulator simulating putting man at the Moon:

there is not Open Source simulators in which You may fly to the Moon yet
.

And it's just truth. If You could, then You would provide not links, but screenshots and videos.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:06 am

I said there is no Open Source simulator simulating putting man at the Moon:


Yeah?

which is clearly proved by fact whole Open Source did not produced any real spaceflight simulator yet.


(You can fly to the Moon with GMAT by the way...)
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:08 am

Real spaceflight is, of course, spacefligth of man at realistic conditions. There Moon is not flat.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby GinGin » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:13 am

Sorry to disagree vitos, but Orbiter is open source and a realistic space flight sim.
Been playing that for 10 years , landed on the moon dozens of time with real appolo timeline.
Same for journey like Rosetta or voyager etc.

And in FG , low earth orbit is really close to real physic wise
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:16 am

This simulator is proprietary - You can use it as it is for free, not to change it. It's not Open Source. Basically, Apollo astronauts did't paid anything to get there, still they made it at capitalism.

As of that simulator - well, it's actually me who made first Earth orbit here. I did't said that is not possible.

In fact, I did't said that Open Source spaceflight simulator isn't possible even. It's just quite improbable. Idea of open code would bring someone to attempts of already existing one adapting, with help of its community of course; if he plans to share, then would await same from others; then he would get experience close to mine - and then he could make some further attempts, but to me personally is hard to imagine such alien. Surely that should be not one with real life experience of 250 000 citizens formally Open Source country collapse.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:29 am

You know how tiresome and childish that attitude is? FG has not delivered exactly what you want, nor does GMAT, and 'it follows' that OpenSource is just a miserable failure.

Well, I got pretty much what I wanted - much more even -, so do many others - so it would seem the problem is yours and yours alone. Have a great day - and use a commercial code if you prefer! Or get coding...
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:33 am

I did not said I would want some Open Source Moon flight now.

I said I wanted, at least, to figure out why USSR did not made it really, with details, which are impossible to figure objectively without billions funds. And I made it.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:34 am

And if you want to figure out why history worked out a certain way - try to understand history based on the facts, don't make up your own facts and invent history.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:35 am

Well, try to fly real Shuttle, kiddo. To figure how it worked.

History is matter of lie commonly. Even history of some, say, simulator. While experiment is experiment. If You are doing everything right, it does not matter if environment is virtual. In fact, social relations here are much more real than that simulator itself.

It's just funny, what You are making realistic simulation of thing, and denying fact that social relations could be simulated just same way, especially if these are of man-thing-man type, so defined by middle point, initially.

I did not made any own facts here. And You did't. Basically, we just proved real story was way it was, while I got detailed comprehending how. Which leads me to conclusion it could not be better. Even with better initial conditions it would boil down to this, and not more than this.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:55 am

If history were like FG:

(Korolev launches Vostok-1 into space - plenty of people applaude)

Glushko: Quite an inspiring achievement. Look, I have this idea for the second flight...
Korolev: No way - only my design flies!
Glushko: Okay...

(a few months later)

Korolev: We absolutely should build a Moon rocket.
Glushko: Sorry, not interested - I'm busy with another design.
Korolev: Yeah, but I already built Vostok
Glushko: And... why stop there if you're interested?

(Korolev puts feet on the desk)

(some time later, Korolev is busy designing an airplane)

Korolev: Hey, comrades - this moon rocket - how come we still don't have any?
Secretary: Well, Glushko is busy with his re-usable spacecraft and has a busy schedule with the mission plan, and you didn't really pursue the moon rocket and worked on this airplane instead, so...
Korolev: The whole space program is a miserable failure - I had this great idea, and nobody did anything about it? And now Glushko is launching?
Secretary: Yeah, pretty much...
Korolev: In the US, this would never have happened.
Secretary: But you didn't work on any rocket either!
Korolev: Socialism is bad!
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby vitos » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:01 am

In fact, Korolev wanted Glusko to make capable big kerosene-oxygen engines for N-1 rocket, ecologically clear. Glushko denied, proposed hydrazine-acid ones, powerful enough, but pollutes environment. So they had huge scandal, and parted ways.

It's just same way no new better Earth engine was made because of Vostok model at simulator, which probably would lead to steps to Moon flight simulation, but upper nasal layer patch, polluting program with additional code, and no Moon flight was made later.

Then Korolev died, while Glushko made Soviet Space Shuttle. True story.

Haha. You really did't knew that!

As of Su-15 model - it was test of how much community would deal with an alienated already man trying to be just common man, but keeping achieved freedom. Who Gagarin, of course, was sort of way. Basically "Gagarins" Su-15 topics were banned just as "Korolevs" Vostok-1 topic. Gagarin died at plane, You know. Not at spaceflight. At MiG-15, to be exact. And Su-15 was involved, as some really respectful people says; which was highly secret at time.

Sorry, as true man I could not make fake personalities, had't any help, so combined "Korolev" and "Gagarin" at one; but result was just same anyway. Su-15 model topic even was separated to two topics, by moderators, and both topics was banned later - just as two pilots was at MiG-15UTI, Seregin was there at commander seat, who actually was test pilot of that plane earlier, as me made out of common model with two gauges and Yasim dynamics thing MiG-15 model is, and quite, quite long ago, so me was "Seregin" also.

It became a bit blurry, yep. But I had't better way to test it, and basically result came out just same as of real history - where two points at ground radar became one and then it went off screen faster than MiG-15 could.

As of now - now I am nor "Korolev", nor "Gagarin", nor "Seregin", but just me, who made all that for reasons explained higher.

Gotcha.
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Re: It's No Moon

Postby Thorsten » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:05 pm

If history were like FG (Part II):

(A year later)

Korolev: It's really sad to see the space program die, comrade.
Glushko: Actually, it isn't dying at all - the reusable spacecraft program is at full steam, we have lots of collaborators, a busy mission schedule,...
Korolev: But you're not going to the Moon!
Glushko: No, I told you - not interested.

(pause)

Glushko: Say, you've been working at this aircraft design, but if you want to get back to space development - there's always room for more good engineers at the re-usable spacecraft program.
Korolev: I should work for you??? Never - you should be working for me on the Moon rocket!!!
Glushko: Well, you were never working on any Moon rocket.
Korolev: That doesn't matter.
Glushko: And you never liked my work, so i decided to pursue my own program.
Korolev: That doesn't matter either.
Glushko: So?
Korolev: Your program is doomed without me.
Glushko: Okay...
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