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FDM quality and content licensing

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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:39 pm

Consider also that once upon a time you could find planes here that used different licenses, when I came here you could. A debate was had somewhere else, not this forum but a system used in the 20th century not the 21st......a mailing list..... It didn't involve all as Thorsten would have you believe but a small subset of developers.. It wasn't a reasoned debate and examples were set of those that didn't agree with decision made through bans from both there and here....

Oh but it's not a democracy...

If it's not what it is ?

Solutions to any issues could have been found, but the will to listen to any issues wasn't and still isn't there, never mind the will to implement any reasonable requests.

I'll give an example... when I do a flight model I back it up with historical data, but it was demanded of me to not include it as I couldn't gaurantee the copyright of ALL..... instead could I include links to the places on the Web for people interested to download, thus it is not seen that FG to be distributing potential copyrighted material....

This is a very reasonable request.....demand....call it what you want..
(I believe if it's for a plane to be improved by a users these are known as demands around here and the person bullied to tears)

So with the understanding that this can be done within a planes download....why can't a plane within FGAddon also have links to other non-GPL content downloads from other parts of the Web? .....so that a person wishing to update the ask13 with the CC flight model or another one of his choosing, say an FGUK for example can do so as an addon.?

Keeping the Flightgear family together rather that driving wedges and calling other people with different opinions nasty names.

If I can think of it so can others here,..... so do they have other agendas other than the best planes, flight models, 3d and 2d art that you can download for the users.

I think I know the answer to that one !

Simon.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:43 pm

These were the people excluded from Flightgear.


It's a heartbreaking tale, granted, but it's based on a wrong premise.

No one was ever excluded from Flightgear - merge requests are accepted from anyone. Wrongly licensed material or dangerous hacks are excluded from Flightgear, not people.

Folks were banned from the forum - for inappropriate behavior, certainly not for any attempt to contribute. Magically, all the Nazi comparisons, insults, attacks and lies by the folks whose company you enjoy so much are edited out of your tale. Um... still archived, sorry.

And, well, if you don't like GPL, don't try to contribute to a GPL project. It's not that hard... If you don't like steak, don't go to the steakhouse and complain about their poor vegetarian selection - go to a vegetarian restaurant.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:18 am

Consider also that once upon a time you could find planes here that used different licenses, when I came here you could.


How would this be even possible - non-GPL compatible craft on the monolithic GPL-licensed FGData repository? You could find those planes on external hangars, then as now.

It didn't involve all as Thorsten would have you believe but a small subset of developers..


By the best estimate from downloads, FG has close to half a million users. Debates never involve everyone (a complete red herring) , they always involve the small subset of people who care to participate (and usually they tend to be developers, but there's more than one user participating in mailing list exchanges).

It wasn't a reasoned debate and examples were set of those that didn't agree with decision made through bans from both there and here....


How would you know - you claimed several times it didn't happen, you couldn't find it,...? So you did manage to find it after all and lied about that before, or you just made up the above assessment?

Also, nobody is 'banned' from the mailing list - people who behave inappropriately (like can't resist personal attacks or Nazi comparisons) on the list are put on moderation.

If it's not what it is ?


It's been explained to you a couple of times. You're insulting your intellectual capabilities with such questions - were you unable to understand the answer before, did you not bother to read it, or do you just write your propaganda piece regardless of what's said?

Solutions to any issues could have been found,


Solutions have been found - people who don't like GPL use external hangars, people on external hangars who collaborate with the project otherwise do collaborate and people who feel that either the project does what they want or they disrupt the day to day work with attacks and insults are barred the means to do so.

Easy, isn't it?

Look at how many people who don't want to license GPL work amiably with FG developers and how many good collaborations there are going on - it's not about external hangar or GPL - it's about the ability to work as a team when needed.

why can't a plane within FGAddon also have links to other non-GPL content downloads from other parts of the Web?


I don't know - I've seen lots of planes which contain links to some other content in the web on FGAddon in the help, author line or descriptive xml (I'm even maintaining one). It's not a problem.

If you have a good collaborative relationship with the current maintainer, he'll surely do you the favor. If, on the other hand, you tout all the time how your own work is better than his and set this up as a competition, he'll probably do the competitive thing and decline to advertize for you... After all, adidas doesn't run Nike ads either...

Keeping the Flightgear family together rather that driving wedges and calling other people with different opinions nasty names.


Says the person with a long history of personal attacks towards other forum members. Maybe if you'd follow your own advice for a change?

Here's the deal:

You use Nazi comparisons and swear words for other developers - not part of my family.
You want to screw content developers over, making free with what they create, going as far to change license statements so that you can use their work for your own purposes - not part of my family.
You can't live with decisions the family made and complain endlessly and for years to come - not part of my family.

It's not a human right to be part of a software project, just downloading the software means you're a user of my software, nothing more, nothing less. A project has self-given rules, and if you want to be part of it, you have to start by accepting the rules and then earn respect by working with the project - not demand that everyone accomodate to your wishes.
Last edited by Thorsten on Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:10 am

The Steakhouse - an analogy

Part 1 - the events

A year ago, at a fancy dinner table, a man sitting and waiting, the waiter approaching:

W: Good evening and welcome to Steak Place - can I take your order?
B: Yes - I'll take the Ten Veggie Gratin.
W: Um... Sir, we don't have this item on the menu.
B: What! I thought you serve your customers!
W: That we do, Sir - if you like a vegetarian dish, can I get you a Cesar's Salad perhaps?
B: No you moron - I said I want a Ten Veggie Gratin, didn't I? Maybe you should start to cook more vegetarian dishes then!
W: Sir, this is a steakhouse, we really have only a limited selection of vegetarian food and I can't change that.

Man gets up and shouts through the room:

B: Hey, people - have you realized what kind of crap place this is - I order some food and they won't serve it!
W: Please calm down, Sir.
B: So you want to prevent me from speaking my opinion, will you? This is a free country and I say whatever I like!
W: Sir, this is private property.
B: (shouts full voice) People, let's get up and show these steak people that we don't accept their attitude! Lets show them that they're no better than we are! That they have no right to oppress us.
W: Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to leave!
B: So you're censoring me now, he? Forget it, you won't shut me up!

Waiter leaves the table for a moment while man shouts random threats into the room. A customer approaches.

C: Hey man, chill - this really is a steakhouse, you can get your vegetarian dinner two blocks away - why don't you go there?
B: Do they pay you to do that, or do you just hope to get into their good grace?
C: What's your problem, man?

Waiter returns, a police officer following him.

W: Sir, I have to ask you to leave, officer Williamson will escort you out.
B: (shouts) You're a steak-nazi! That's what you are! A dictator!

Officer grabs man and drags him up.

O: Sir, please follow me.
B: First they come for the vegetarians - and no one stands up. Then they'll come for the fish eaters - and no one stands up. And by the time they come for the steak-eaters, there'll be no one left.
O: This way please...

Part 2 - the heartbreaking story

A year later, man sits with a few others over a few beers.

B: You know, all I wanted was to order some food. That's what a restaurant is for, right? But they kicked me out for that - can you believe - they even called the police! For no better reason that I don't like to eat steak.

J (nods): Yeah, I know what you mean - my steak wasn't tasty at all, totally burned, and I never got a refund. They didn't even let me show the chef how to prepare a proper steak.

B: No, they're censoring any opinion they don't like, and everyone who likes different food gets called names. They refused to even listen to any of the suggestions I made - all I wanted was to help them to improve their service.

J: Yeah, service is crap over there.

B: I mean, shouldn't we all try to keep the Steak Place family together rather than indulging in name-calling and calling the police to ban people with different opinions.

J: Absolutely, you're so right.... they're all steak-nazis. If they would just listen to us...

(and the curtain falls on the little scene...)
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby wkitty42 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:32 pm

Image Image Image
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Johan G » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:29 pm

I am locking this topic as it seem to have been run too far already.
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