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FDM quality and content licensing

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FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:44 pm

milolouis wrote:I really like flightgear but this concerns me as to the flight dynamics of all the models.


I'm glad to hear it concerns you.... it should concern everyone yet it doesn't, so flightgear has ended up in the position it has.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:16 am

I'm glad to hear it concerns you.... it should concern everyone yet it doesn't, so flightgear has ended up in the position it has.


There's still the matter of the ASK-13 JSBSim FDM which is your responsibility, yet which has problems which have bee pointed out to you.

Taken care of it yet?

Otherwise I don't see you in a position to lament the poor state of FDM modeling, because right now you're part of the problem rather than of the solution...

(I'm happy to review and commit your patch any time you're ready...)
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:30 pm

Thorsten wrote in Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:16 am:

Otherwise I don't see you in a position to lament the poor state of FDM modeling, because right now you're part of the problem rather than of the solution...

(I'm happy to review and commit your patch any time you're ready...)


Anyone can get the new flight model, they just have to download it from FGMembers... that's a course of action YOU helped put in place.
And anyway all my work (unless I'm helping someone else) now comes with this license in the header...

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So YOU tell us how you're gonna commit this ?
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:38 pm

So, you create a bad FDM and get it committed to FGAddon, then you create a better FDM and license it differently, and then you complain that there's bad FDMs on FGAddon?

Seriously?

Now sit down and think - why could this be, and how could you have contributed to that state?

Got it?

Good.

This is a joke, right?

You're obviously the problem here, not the solution - don't complain about bad FDMs, start doing what you can, create a patch and license it GPL as you did the original (bad) FDM, as simple as that - and FGAddon will be a bit better tomorrow.

Otherwise:

I'm happy to review and commit your patch any time you're ready...

I actually do take the review seriously.

that's a course of action YOU helped put in place.


I'm sorry to disappoint your belief in my superpowers, but FG was GPL since the beginning (waaay before I joined), and I had pretty much no influence on that. I might also add that I have no admin rights on any of the FG repositories, so it's not really clear to me what I did (except commit the ASK-13 FDM on your behalf after frequent complaints that you can't get it committed).
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:03 pm

yeh I needed a bigger audience, so as to get feedback, this was the reason I complained that I couldn't get it committed to FGAddon. so as to be able to make it correct.

I never committed to continually giving updates in GPL...

I'm sorry to tell you this but when I joined Flightgear you could get both GPL and CC work from the same easy to find repository.... it was YOU that championed the division of this community.

And now you've got your way you're upset cause you don't have the most up-to-date version in your beloved FGAddon...not my fault, get over it, like us that didn't want the spit have had to do.

Simon
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:13 pm

And now you've got your way you're upset cause you don't have the most up-to-date version in your beloved FGAddon.


Hm, the only person who claimed to be upset about anything was you - strange, isn't it?

it was YOU that championed the division of this community.


It's sort of charming what influence you credit me with, but no. You're confusing me explaining to you that FG is GPL with me having any sort of influence on FG being GPL. As I said before, it was that way long before I joined the project, it's part of the project's mission statement, and my influence on changing it is zero.

I never committed to continually giving updates in GPL...


I'm not saying you did - I'm just saying that it's hypocritical to lament the poor state of FDMs in FGAddon (which, see above, you have done, not I) while being blatantly responsible for that very state and yet refusing to do anything about it.

See, if I throw my trash out of the front door, I sort of void my right to complain that there's so much trash in front of my door.

Not so hard to understand, is it? :mrgreen:
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:23 pm

Thorsten wrote in Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:13 pm:
I'm not saying you did - I'm just saying that it's hypocritical to lament the poor state of FDMs in FGAddon (which, see above, you have done, not I) while being blatantly responsible for that very state and yet refusing to do anything about it.

See, if I throw my trash out of the front door, I sort of void my right to complain that there's so much trash in front of my door.

Not so hard to understand, is it? :mrgreen:


If you say so.....but like I said anyone can get the better flightmodel from FGMembers repository anytime they like...

And you're misunderstanding or deliberately twisting the original posters comment and as such my response..

I really like flightgear but this concerns me as to the flight dynamics of all the models.


He doesn't mention FGAddon.... I don't mention FGAddon... I'm talking about Flightgear as a whole (and believe he is), not the fragmented disjointed elitist version of it you have in your mind that sets one repository of planes against another.

Even the most blinkered person must understand the validity of what he has said.....

I really like flightgear but this concerns me as to the flight dynamics of all the models.


Twist it how you want.... make it into your personal, it's not personal Simon attacks on me.... I don't care
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:52 am

He doesn't mention FGAddon.... I don't mention FGAddon... I'm talking about Flightgear as a whole


FGMembers isn't part of Flightgear though - it's a (hostile) fork by a few people who absolutely felt they needed to divide the community because they're not interested in things like reviewing contributions (e.g. for copyright violations). So there's that - FGAddon is the Flightgear aircraft repository - all else is external hangars not part of the Flightgear project.
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:02 am

The majority of high quality planes can be found in these external repositories..

Your comments clearly show how it's YOU that's hostile and it's YOUR attitude that helped divide the flightgear community.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:45 am

The majority of high quality planes can be found in these external repositories..


That may or may not be so - given your statements on FDM modeling here in the forum and the examples of your work I've seen, I think you're seriously over-estimating your own knowledge and ability to make that judgement, so I won't lose any sleep over your opinion.

Your comments clearly show how it's YOU that's hostile and it's YOUR attitude that helped divide the flightgear community.


I'm not sure I'm following.

You want to license CC, I explain to you that FG is GPL and that you can't do that in FG, you need to have an external hangar, I supposedly divide the community. Others want to skip processes like auditing for copyright violations, I (and many others!) explain why that's not a good idea, they create their own repo where they can do what they like without all this nasty reviews (and commit copyright-violating material to it almost immediately!) - and I supposedly divide the community.

See, if you insist that the English literature club starts discussing French books and they refuse on the grounds that they're the English literature club, it's not they who are dividing anything.

It's not rocket science to see that, yet you consistently fail to grasp that simple point. Why is that?
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:34 pm

Afterthought:

I also honestly think the whole 'division of the community' thing is a red herring.

FG as a project follows certain rules - what we aim to do, how we resolve differences, that kind of thing. Anyone who is willing to play by these rules is welcome by the project. Always. There are in fact many people who participate in different communities - be it FGUK, FGMembers or FG Brazil to name a few - just as well as here - without any problems.

The so-called division is really along lines of what we won't do in the FG project:

* FG is GPL - so any non-GPL contribution can't become part of it. Maybe we'd get much better 3d models or FDMs if we'd organize things around a commercial or more restrictive license - but we're explicitly interested in creating it all GPL. That's a central goal of the project. Even where this means we might not get the best possible (we often do not get the best - I could often buy much better textures than I could find under a free license). So anyone not interested in GPL can't work inside the FG project, it has to be an external hangar then.

* FG cares about the law - so anyone who feels that we can just take stuff found on the internet if there's no clear sign to the contrary on the basis that it doesn't really matter and that checking material is a personal affront can do his development elsewhere.

* The FG project cares about working as a team and finding consensus. Anyone who is unable to live with a decision reached after a discussion of all involved if that decision goes against his own opinion and insists in doing his own thing needs to do this elsewhere - as part of a devel team, we have to accept that we always get to say our piece, but we don't always get what we want afterwards.

So yes, there are people interested in flight simulation who don't align with the goals of the FG project - that's no ones fault, needs to be recognized and it's best if one parts ways early.

And that's all there is to it.
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:29 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:45 am:
That may or may not be so - given your statements on FDM modeling here in the forum and the examples of your work I've seen, I think you're seriously over-estimating your own knowledge and ability to make that judgement, so I won't lose any sleep over your opinion.



Anytime you want to pick a glider and we'll go head-to-head flight modelling it, you're on.
Last edited by Bomber on Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:37 pm

As an afterthought...

A project evolves, FG had evolved to include content with different licences within it's repository....

It had done this to meet the requirements of it's content developers, then things changed and evolution was rolled back to GPL only content.

I'm not standing in the way of progress... YOU are.
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:27 pm

Anytime you want to pick a glider and we'll go head-to-head flight modelling it, you're on.


The Space Shuttle actually is a glider... I'll be happy to see your version of the airfoils-only entry dynamics, that's going to be a good one - it does take some math :mrgreen:

A project evolves, FG had evolved to include content with different licences within it's repository.


Not really, no. It was always GPL and compatible and still is. Not sure where your information is from, but it's wrong (I'm frankly not sure how the scenario you describe should even have worked technically...)

Oh - and while doing away with copyright auditing might also meet the needs of some content developers, it's still not progress, it's just a way to accumulate a stash of pirated content.

It had done this to meet the requirements of it's content developers,


There's still the same flaw in the argument: Let me try to point it out once again in this different perspective:

A: There's so good French books, and I speak French much better than English - why do you insist in not discussing them - this is stupid!

B: Because we're still the English literature club.

Aka - if you want to provide non-GPL content, you should not aim for doing it within a GPL project, you're at the wrong address. There's no progress in making a GPL project non-GPL.
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Re: B777-300 Unable to stall (UNSTALLABLE)

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:57 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:27 pm:
Anytime you want to pick a glider and we'll go head-to-head flight modelling it, you're on.


The Space Shuttle actually is a glider... I'll be happy to see your version of the airfoils-only entry dynamics, that's going to be a good one - it does take some math :mrgreen:


Could you be anymore slippery and disengenuous ?
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchel
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