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FDM quality and content licensing

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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:30 pm

Could you be anymore slippery and disengenuous ?


Sure - here's what I really think:

I think FG first and foremost is a collaborative project, so I'd like to spend my spare time doing development together with people, not in a competition against someone duplicating the same thing.

Second, I think your challenge is childish - I have my existing work in FG to speak for my abilities, you have yours. I have whatever I say about physics, math and aerodynamics to speak for my abilities, you have yours. Anyone can make up his mind what to think about that.

Third, unlike you, I actually spend a lot of work developing the simulation platform we all love and enjoy, so forgive me if I won't spend too much time convincing you of how things stand.

And fourth - there's no shame in not understanding the math required to simulate spaceflight. This actually is rocket science (pun intended). But there is, in my view, something fundamentally wrong with writing in every second post how bad everyone else's FDMs are when every second conversation with you shows that you apply a very simple picture of aerodynamics based on force arrows attaching in points and insist that things not in this picture can't be. Yes - there's people around who don't even apply that picture and can learn from you - but that doesn't mean you have it all figured out.

And finally - I realize fully well what 'the needs of the content providers' are - it's a setup in which you get to use all the stuff I work on (because it's licensed permissively) and you get to tell me what to do (because of said needs) - whereas you have complete control over your work (because you license restrictively). It's painfully obvious why you want this setup - but forgive me if I don't get all misty-eyed at the prospect to do your bidding and get nothing in return. I'd like the setup fair and collaborative - I license my work permissively, you do the same with yours - and we might both find something useful created by the other. And who knows - eventually we might end up with a viable flight simulation...
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:52 pm

What a rant and pack of lies...

The license I use gives you exactly the same rights as the GPL license except the right to use it in a commercial product..

I've searched this forum Thorsten and I can't see the debate and subsequent poll where the majority of FG users and developers made their decision and others refused to accept it...

Please show me where ALL were involved as you say.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:06 pm

The license I use gives you exactly the same rights as the GPL license except the right to use it in a commercial product..


Which however prevents FG from using any of it... I rest my case.

I've searched this forum Thorsten and I can't see the debate and subsequent poll where the majority of FG users and developers made their decision and others refused to accept it...


Please don't play stupid here - it's been pointed out a gazillion times that the FG project discussions happen on the mailing list. You won't find the discussion on facebook either...

Also, a software project is not a democracy where everyone gets a vote (and neither did I claim that) - its based on merit and the people who have a stake in the project and do the work get to decide on what affects them. That's also been explained a couple of times. You don't also involve everyone in decisions what you work on....
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Hooray » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:28 pm

this topic doesn't look like it's a good way to spend our time here, so I would suggest to move this to a private discussion (PM/eMail) and would also suggest to have this locked/deleted, because we've all seen how much of an impact these debates are having on actual long-time contributors, the people who care most about these issues also happen to be the ones with stakes in the project - e.g. people who could spend 3 hours a weeks spoon-feeding the meaning of the GPL to others and how the project works, or they could actually do something meaningful with their time - such as working on a certain aircraft (be it GPL or not).

Note that I am not involved in any "closed circle" here - it's just that I realize that these debates have a certain price tag associated with them, and one way or another we (really, all of us) are paying for these debates - even if just in terms of seeing fewer features in a new release, or seeing heavily delayed or even dysfunctional releases.

Thus, if any of you think that this should be continued, I would suggest to do so in private - we've all seen how much of an impact all these fgmembers discussions had on the project as a whole, including all parties involved.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Richard » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:34 pm

This is a discussion we've had many times and I'm not entering the debate; however I am going to point out there was the "Beagle Pup experiment" where Simon and produced aero models of the same aircraft that can be compared by anyone who is interested in FDM quality and the differing approaches.

There are three models available;

1. Simon's model; using the individual surface approach
2. Richard Senior's model using Aeromatic
3. My model using OpenVSP.

For convenience a complete model containing the three can be downloaded from http://chateau-logic.com/files/Beagle-P ... parison.7z

--------------------
[edit] Fixed url
Last edited by Richard on Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Hooray » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:42 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:30 pm:something fundamentally wrong with writing in every second post how bad everyone else's FDMs are when every second conversation with you shows that you apply a very simple picture of aerodynamics based on force arrows attaching in points and insist that things not in this picture can't be. Yes - there's people around who don't even apply that picture and can learn from you - but that doesn't mean you have it all figured out.



This may be of interest: http://www.av8n.com/how/

John is also a FlightGear contributor, and used to maintain the so called "sports-model"
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:22 pm

Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:06 pm:
The license I use gives you exactly the same rights as the GPL license except the right to use it in a commercial product..


Which however prevents FG from using any of it... I rest my case..


But doesn't prevent anyone from flying a plane... which as we know is why we do this hobby.

Some peoples hobbies however also include making it difficult for others to find these non GPL planes by casting them out onto the web.

The FG project cares about working as a team and finding consensus. Anyone who is unable to live with a decision reached after a discussion of all involved if that decision goes against his own opinion and insists in doing his own thing needs to do this elsewhere - as part of a devel team, we have to accept that we always get to say our piece, but we don't always get what we want afterwards.


Also, a software project is not a democracy where everyone gets a vote (and neither did I claim that) - its based on merit and the people who have a stake in the project and do the work get to decide on what affects them. That's also been explained a couple of times. You don't also involve everyone in decisions what you work on....


The majority of people didn't even get a look in.... Just those that others deemed had the 'merit' to have an opinion.... I understand I'm not worthy of such a lofty position to be part of any development team.

That may or may not be so - given your statements on FDM modeling here in the forum and the examples of your work I've seen, I think you're seriously over-estimating your own knowledge and ability to make that judgement, so I won't lose any sleep over your opinion.


But what about the users of this product, shouldn't they have been consulted, isn't it for them that we do our hobby ?
"Would they like to have to go here there and everywhere to find non-GPL content or would they have like to have had it all in a centralized place ?"

Hooray... that's right lets lock the topic as it just makes those that have the 'merit' not feel so valued.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:26 pm

Hooray wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:42 pm:
Thorsten wrote in Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:30 pm:something fundamentally wrong with writing in every second post how bad everyone else's FDMs are when every second conversation with you shows that you apply a very simple picture of aerodynamics based on force arrows attaching in points and insist that things not in this picture can't be. Yes - there's people around who don't even apply that picture and can learn from you - but that doesn't mean you have it all figured out.



This may be of interest: http://www.av8n.com/how/

John is also a FlightGear contributor, and used to maintain the so called "sports-model"


I've been touting this documentation for years....

https://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3386.0

and if the planes behaved like what he's written I wouldn't have a problem.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:59 am

The majority of people didn't even get a look in....


No, they did not look in for their own reasons - the list is openly visible via web browser and anyone who can write emails can participate in discussions. Moreover, you can still access the archives - and editing these is hard, much harder than for a forum - ain't that transparency at its best?

I assume pretty much everyone using FG has an email and a web browser, no?

But what about the users of this product, shouldn't they have been consulted, isn't it for them that we do our hobby ?


Do you? Strange you dismissed every user-side request I've ever seen then put to you. Why would that be? Where was the poll you organized to determine what you work on - did I miss it? If we make a poll whether you should license your work GPL, will you adhere to the outcome?

We seem to be coming back to the theme that you lament very vocally when you don't get to decide what someone else does and deny very vocally when someone else tries to tell you what you should do - I understand why you like the setup, but... still not getting misty-eyed, sorry.

"Would they like to have to go here there and everywhere to find non-GPL content or would they have like to have had it all in a centralized place ?"


Or better yet - would they like to have it all licensed the same so that it can legally be obtained from the same place the same way? Without popups of license notes (you're now entering the non-GPL repository!) all over the place? Would they actually vote that you should change license? And what would you do then?

Would content creators perhaps see the virtue of being able to exchange useful bits of system simulation or instruments among all aircraft in the repository freely? And might they perhaps vote for that?

Now that's a question, ain't it?
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:04 am

Thorsten wrote in Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:59 am:
Do you? Strange you dismissed every user-side request I've ever seen then put to you. Why would that be?



What are you talking about you lying piece of sh.....

If you're talking about dismissing things that you've said, well I'm entitled to an opinion on a subject too.

Thorsten wrote in Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:59 am:
Where was the poll you organized to determine what you work on - did I miss it? If we make a poll whether you should license your work GPL, will you adhere to the outcome?



Are you just making stuff up as you go along ?

I know English isn't your first language, but if you're going to tell us that all got to debate and came to a majority decision, and that FGMembers are people that refused to accept this decision ... wel that is a plain lie.

Hardly anyone got to debate it, hardly anyone made a decision...... and FGMembers are people that were sent away from here because they weren't listened too, and their needs weren't accommodated but rather were dismissed out of hand.

You have created an argument out of nothing here Thorsten.... what is it YOU get out of it ?

I'm glad to hear it concerns you.... it should concern everyone yet it doesn't, so flightgear has ended up in the position it has.


This is all I wrote, after which you started this argument with your bitter personal attacks....what do YOU see this achieving ?
Shouldn't it concern everyone.... this is a flight sim !
What is so contentious that you see it as an attack on all flight modelers ?
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:24 am

Ah, no polls from you to ask the user what to do then... you're entitled to follow your opinion in the matter of your own work and dismiss what others say - just others should ask your opinion before deciding upon their work?

I can't find any personal attacks except from your side - like: you lying piece of sh.....

I guess it's fairly obvious once again what's going on here. Please don't think everyone here is as fond of personal insults or as bitter that he didn't get out of FG what he wanted as you are - most of us are fairly happy working together on creating a great flightsim - and don't feel the need to spend every other post claiming how bad everything is.

Hardly anyone got to debate it


There's several years (!) worth of mailing list archives to say otherwise.

and FGMembers are people that were sent away from here because they weren't listened to


Again, there's hundreds (!) of text pages proving that they were listened to - the decision just didn't go how they wanted. So they decided to leave. No one was suddenly denied repository access or such like. Sounds a bit different, does it?

So - evidence is on my side... lots of it. But you've had your share of insulting me, so I guess I'll finish it here - I have a sim to develop, you know?
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby dg-505 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:27 am

Could please someone kick this stupid, agressive, unconstructive, infantile idiot out of this forum?!

It's getting really annoying to read his insulting attacks over and over again in the whole forum.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:28 pm

Yet again a personal attack on me....
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby wlbragg » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:58 pm

@Bomber, your original post implies developers in flight gear don't care about FDM quality and that FG is in some kind of state because of it. Talk about making stuff up. That is just not the reality of the way this project works. Most people don't even bother to respond to such a mistake in perception. Others, that are more passionate about or involved with the incredible work being accomplished here are less apt to let such a misperception stand without rebuttal. Especially when part of the real problem appears to be partially self inflicted as in your case, you know, pot calling the kettle black. It's even more frustrating when coming from a developer that does appear to care, such as yourself. Yet you are leaving your prior work in a less developed state than is available elsewhere. Sounds like a punishment to me.
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Re: FDM quality and content licensing

Postby Bomber » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:14 pm

@wlbragg.... In the past Thorsten has rebuked me with just that reply....That the accuracy of flight models is not important !

I've spent years here doing MY best to increase the profile of flight modeling and the prevailing culture that puts placeholder poor 3d models and their authors above those that produce flight models.... There's loads of goodwill and respect given out to these guys " WTG ! you've created an exterior 3d model of this that or the other plane, what no internals or cockpit and the same old placeholder flight model that's just a copy and paste of another planes, that just a copy and paste.... But never mind YOU are now the owner of this plane and all others MUST bow to you asking for YOUR permission to have anything added to it...."

Understand something about my flight model , I was given no choice if I wanted the greater flight gear community to see my flightmodel and critic it with feedback.... it was either licence it as GPL or it doesn't get into FGAddon.. Yes I can put it in repositories in the wilderness, and be called names for doing so.. But when I hear fellow flight modelers like Alan has said in the past, refusing to download from anywhere but FGAddon I am saddened and backed into a corner.

The punishment was on those people that wanted to develop content for Flightgear... to share their work, allow others to copy and improve it (if possible) safe in the knowledge that it couldn't be used by others for commercial use... These were the people excluded from Flightgear.

Keeping GPL as the licence is akin to helping those people that scam others out of money with the payed version..... you're almost think they were in league with each other.

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