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What is a fork (split from How the project works)

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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Thorsten » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm

If you're genuinely interested in an answer, please read back.

If you insist in asking the same questions over and over again and want to be pointed to the things we've covered four of five times, I'm going to have to assume you just want to keep the discussion going and waste everyone's time.

Please knock it off - it's been beaten to death. I won't spoon-feed it to you again. Thanks for understanding.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby wlbragg » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:45 pm

@ Lydiot, in case you really didn't understand,
One example of “making available to the public” is putting the software on a public web or FTP server.

Thorsten put the files on a "private server" and made the mistake of giving the link to the wrong people assuming we were all playing on the same field.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:52 pm

Thorsten wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm:If you're genuinely interested in an answer, please read back.


I did. Your "answer" is incorrect. Please read back and see for yourself.

Thorsten wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm:If you insist in asking the same questions over and over again and want to be pointed to the things we've covered four of five times, I'm going to have to assume you just want to keep the discussion going and waste everyone's time.


You're the one wasting people's time while accusing them of theft, inaccurately so. Stop wasting people's time.

Thorsten wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm:Please knock it off


Are you the moderator? No? Then please knock it off yourself.

Thorsten wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm: - it's been beaten to death. I won't spoon-feed it to you again. Thanks for understanding.


You're the one who apparently needs to be spoon fed to understand why you're wrong. It's "beaten to death" because you fail to comprehend what you're told.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:55 pm

wlbragg wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:45 pm:@ Lydiot, in case you really didn't understand,
One example of “making available to the public” is putting the software on a public web or FTP server.

Thorsten put the files on a "private server" and made the mistake of giving the link to the wrong people


He didn't give the link to specific people, he posted it on a public forum. But please feel free to define what a "public web or FTP server" is. I'm pretty sure that if you can post a link to a public forum and that grants you access to files it'll qualify as "public". If not, then tell me why.

Thorsten wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:38 pm:assuming we were all playing on the same field.


He said the stuff was GPL, he said people could take it. Just because he then wants to play word-games with the term "release" as opposed to the others that are actually more clearly defined doesn't mean he can retroactively claim it wasn't for people to take/use. Try that in court and see how it goes. My hunch is "not so well".
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby wlbragg » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:01 pm

Thorsten is right, It's all been been stated quite clearly, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

assuming we were all playing on the same field.

That is the main point of my post but you have to think about it. People can try to get along or not!
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:54 pm

wlbragg wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:01 pm:Thorsten is right, It's all been been stated quite clearly, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


I guess so. Thosrten is of course free to call people thieves or whatever it was, and others are of course free to essentially call people polluters. And Curt is free to insult people as well. And the moderators here are free to ban others for doing essentially the same thing.

wlbragg wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:01 pm:
assuming we were all playing on the same field.

That is the main point of my post but you have to think about it. People can try to get along or not!


What makes you think I didn't "think about it"? I did. How about you think about this:

The argument above is entirely unnecessary if Thorsten is right; because if he's right then people indeed are thieves and we don't have to talk about "getting along" at all. It's just a fact - people stole something from him - "getting along" is pretty much an unnecessary argument at that point.

BUT - if they indeed did not steal his content, then the argument makes sense... then it makes sense to say "Oh, yeah, they actually didn't do anything wrong, it's just that it wasn't particularly nice of them to do it". That is an entirely different proposition.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby wlbragg » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:29 pm

Lydiot wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:54 pm:if they indeed did not steal his content, then the argument makes sense... then it makes sense to say "Oh, yeah, they actually didn't do anything wrong, it's just that it wasn't particularly nice of them to do it". That is an entirely different proposition.


I get your point, but I am of the opinion that it was commingled, private property that was taken from a private server.

That is at worst and at best if you were to agree with the other side of the argument then it is a very distasteful an undesirable action.

The main point being GPL does not mean you don't posses the property on your premises and that because part of your belongings are GPL then everything you own is free for the taking from your private property.

Because if the opposite is the case and I have a website available to the public with an area of GPL files, I no longer control the rest of my non-GPL files on my website. It makes no sense to me and I don't believe that could be the intent of the license.

So at best, maybe you could try to make the argument that the GPL files were "released", but certainly not any of the code or files that Thorsten created or possessed that we're not GPL that he wasn't ready to release and clearly stated as such.

I take him for his word from the start, non of it was available for release yet. And if that is actually defensible in court, than it is the worst case scenario.

If it wasn't defensible in court, then the best that could be hoped for is through the lack of a clear "release" statement or mechanism that he was taken advantage of by someone that he assumed was on the same page and shared the same values. That they not only grabbed the GPL data but also the private property, that still fits the worst case scenario as far as I am concerned.

So we are back to agreeing to disagree. Both sides have thoroughly presented their case to the members of this community. We can all decide for ourselves which is the most likely.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:47 am

wlbragg wrote in Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:29 pm: they not only grabbed the GPL data but also the private property,


Ok, here I admit ignorance: What is the private data you're referring to and where was it located, specifically?
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby wlbragg » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:20 am

What is the private data you're referring to and where was it located, specifically?

I can't answer that specifically, but I can answer it this way.

I get the AirCrane from fgaddon, I start working on it on my private server. I write some new code to make towing cargo a possibility. New textures, new nasal, new xml. I have not decided what license I plan to put on my new additions or when I am going to publish it. Maybe in the end if it is too much work or I come up with some really unique Idea I won't license it GPL.
Now I post a link on a public server to a part of the new code that happens to be in the same folder as some of the original GPL files asking for help from a fellow developer named Joe to solve a particular problem I am having with the new code.
Is it OK or legal for anyone to grab that code and publish it in any fashion what so ever?
What about the GPL code that happens to reside in the same folder, is it OK or legal for anyone to grab that code and publish it?
What about the GPL code that happens to reside in the same folder that I have extended with new code I have written, is it OK or legal for anyone to grab that code and publish it?

I think not in any of those cases as I never gave my permission to anyone but Joe to do anything with my copyrighted property.
Last edited by wlbragg on Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Thorsten » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:38 am

I did. Your "answer" is incorrect.


Lydiot, you're entitled to your beliefs. That includes the belief that after 18 pages, we still 'need answers and explanations' - and also the belief that you're right because I won't go round and round in circles with anyone who feels like it.

I on the other hand believe that I have presented my arguments clearly and a few times and that after 18 pages, we've left the stage of 'we need explanations' and are well into 'we waste time here' - and that anyone who cares to think through the case has all information he needs by now.

So I suggest you write your text why the fact that I won't continue to discuss this proves that I'm wrong, we can all make up our mind whether that's wishful thinking or logic, and then we go on doing things we enjoy. Have a great day! :D
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:42 pm

wlbragg wrote in Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:20 am:
What is the private data you're referring to and where was it located, specifically?

I can't answer that specifically,


Well then, I'd call that "telling".
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby wlbragg » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:27 pm

I think not in any of those cases as I never gave my permission to anyone but Joe to do anything with my copyrighted property.

It not a "tell". It doesn't matter that I didn't track any of Thorsten's work back then. But if you think Thorsten started working on the shuttle without actually writing any code or modifying any files, well then, I don't know what to tell you!

So your argument is he did nothing but copy GPL files, put them on his private server and said, have at it?
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:40 am

No, that's not my argument. Thorsten said, if I'm looking at the right issue:

"You are quite within the letter of the GPL license - so you may do whatever you please "

How can that be true while simultaneously a copyright infringement occurred?
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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby curt » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:33 pm

Hi Lydiot,

Here's the way I see it. This thread has 19 pages now of back and forth arguing obscure legal points, arguing intent, arguing facts, arguing about arguing. 99% of these issues could be avoided if people treated each other with basic courtesy and with respect. And I would propose if everyone was doing that from the start (as most people do) then we would rarely get into these feuds where any small comment sparks a new flame fest between the usual names.

If a flame fest continues on until one side relents and one side declares itself a victor, it will never end because there are always more points and more nuance that can be contested. On the internet, everyone is right, and everyone can reply with something that picks apart the previous message or injects some new angle, or confounds or conjoins unrelated issues in a big twisted mess. I like to say that even though my opinions may be amended from time to time, the fact that I am right never changes. :-) In some circles, these arguments, their scope. and their frantic tone and emotion explode exponentially with each reply. When you follow the trajectory of those sorts of arguments, where can it possibly lead to? The truth? If you created a plot of time versus truth content of these kinds of threads, how would that look? :-) Time vs. emotion? Time vs. unfair statements? Time vs. intimidation?

So we can try to squeeze the last bits of truth out of an emotional thread that hasn't really gone anywhere in it's long term trajectory, and people can continue this forever, or we can walk away having stated our case ... at some point you realize that you will never sway the people who are dead set against your position, but if you state your views clearly and fairly, the people who really matter will hopefully see them and weigh your words fairly in the grand balance of things. That process can take time and patience. It's far easier to sow negative seeds and poison the water than build a long term positive environment.

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Re: What is a fork (split from How the project works)

Postby Lydiot » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:22 pm

Curt,

You essentially say above that the "flame fests" are the result of everyone thinking they're right but people not wanting to cease trying to prove that. Ok, fine. It essentially sounds like "it takes two to tango". You've further more established that we should be courteous and respectful. Also fine.

Now someone comes along and tosses out my name in a way that I find to be a bit insulting. What do you do? Nothing. Fine. You don't have to. Consider this though:

1) I have absolutely not been one of the posters that participated the most in this thread. Probably not by far. You might see some other FGMembers belonging to that category, as well as some others like Hooray, Thorsten, and wlbragg or so (I didn't count). So, it's pretty damn interesting that you let someone sling mud like that on the assumption that I've sort of polluted this thread when in fact I've barely participated in it, relatively speaking (again, I didn't count, but feel free to).

2) I notice that you directed this at me specifically. I don't recall you saying the same to anyone on "the other side" of this discussion. I don't recall you telling Thorsten too cool it or to walk away. If it takes two to tango and if everyone is always right then it'd have made more sense to either make that a blanket statement or to tell us both.

3) Lastly, I notice the following:

curt wrote in Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:16 pm:Hi Hooray, fgmembers will always try to flip our words around. They fancy themselves to be very clever debaters, and they are sort of, except often they are so clever for the sake of cleverness that their dis-ingenuousness and utter lack of respect of people here leaks through. If I speak of respect, they will claim they are the ones being disrespected.


You led with that, and then continued with;

curt wrote in Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:16 pm: If not noticing your own disrespectful actions, and feeling disrespected by others is an excuse to outright disrespect others in return, then this is just part of the whole downward spiral these conversations with fgmembers always take.


There's more than a bit of irony in the above.




Oh, and 4) You chose not to comment on the direct quote by Thorsten in favor of keeping this to a meta-discussion about the discussion, or "arguing about arguing" as you put it....

"You are quite within the letter of the GPL license - so you may do whatever you please "



But you're right. None of this changes anything, so I'll just be quiet which is exactly what you want. Just be aware that you're part of the problem as per your very own description ironically.
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