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Access to MPserver12

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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:26 pm

Expectation to be treated justly hardly qualifies as "attitude".


Not as such. It becomes 'attitude' when it has to be your justice or bust. You've seen justice - it's been Rob's version of it, and you've not been happy with it.

See, the fact of the matter is that the situation isn't objectively clear or simple. Curt tells you that part of him has trouble finding too much fault. I have said a few times that I feel I can't really judge this. We have seen a few people leaning clearly towards Rob. We've seen a few others leaning clearly towards you. If we'd take this thread as a poll, the numbers would go close to fifty-fifty.

This should perhaps make you pause and wonder whether it's really the clear cut case you're seeing - many others at least don't see it that way. The notion of what 'just treatment' is varies a bit.

It becomes again attitude when the simple fact that I refuse to side with you immediately and condemn Rob is enough in your eyes to make me guilty by association.

See, I honestly think a lot of the situation could have been salvaged by quietly inquiring for the reasons of what happened, and then see whether Rob can't be persuaded nicely to reconsider his decision (probably not with Israel...). After accusations of censorship, threats and attempts to take the moral high ground and cast him as the villain - well, you practically left him no choice - in fact you confirmed his whole reasoning. And that's where attitude gets into the way, because it's an all volunteer project. My way or bust doesn't work.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby KL-666 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:42 pm

A debate can not be won, but it is about convincing each other. At some point all arguments have been exchanged. Then one should realize: The other knows my position, i know the others position, and this is the distance between our positions. Then just live together with each their own position.

Continuing after all arguments have been exchanged comes probably from thinking that one wins a debate because of having the last post. But that means nothing. The distance in positions still remains, and only harm can be done.

Rob and i differ very much in position. There was a complicating factor that his behaviour reflected on flightgear. That problem is solved now. In no way do i wish him any harm. I want to live next to him knowing of each other we do not agree on some points.

Therefore i am worried about the discussion continuing, probably resulting only in losers and no winners.

Kind regards, Vincent
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:58 pm

If we leave Israel aside for a moment, this post

legoboyvdlp wrote:So why is Israel denied access to mpserver 12 and why does his mpserver12 page have an 808 recorder malfunctioning on it?


is what got legoboy blocked in a few hours. Do you see any accusations or threats here?
Yes, later, when he himself got blocked, he got angry - quite rightfully so - but nothing he posted was over the top or even close, or the moderators would have dealt with that. And where else he would have inquired about this if not on the support forum? Especially since he was blocked and couldn’t even find the maintainer’s contacts? Or did he have to hide this fact and protect evilslut from the beginning, before he could even be sure that this is not a technical problem? Let’s not be unreasonable, he did what any normal person would have done.
I’d also like to point out that legoboy has taken his own stance on matters like license issues and Jabberwocky’s first ban, and he didn’t agree with Israel and Jabberwocky about these. He was nice with evilslut and even apologized even though he hadn’t done anything wrong, but all he got was new insults. Clearly legoboy has shown more maturity here than some of the adults. Kudos to legoboy! 8)
So it would indeed be very sad and a very weird sense of justice if somebody took Rob’s side here.
I have a question. If Rob was so sure that he was acting righteously, why did he try to hide it? Why didn’t he notify any of them? You’ll say he didn’t have to. Fine (though I don’t agree with this). Then why did he punish legoboy for bringing this to public attention? To me it says that he was well aware that he was doing something questionable.
When you notify somebody, you have to give a good reason. He didn’t have it. He could have put that notification on their 808 page, but he just ridiculed them by inserting a picture of a broken flight recorder.

See, I honestly think a lot of the situation could have been salvaged by quietly inquiring for the reasons of what happened, and then see whether Rob can't be persuaded nicely to reconsider his decision

I’ve never fought for this. See, I know something about human psychology and it was clear to me from the beginning that if this has been done deliberately, it’s irreversible. So why not just say everything that I think?
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby curt » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:54 pm

As said earlier in this thread, no one is putting Rob on a pedestal. I don't think Rob would claim he acted extra righteously in this matter, and I don't recall anyone here making that claim. He did what he felt like he needed or wanted to do. I asked him if he would reconsider now that the dust is mostly settled, and he wrote back that he preferred to remove his system from the *.flightgear.org domain instead. This is a guy who goes by the nickname evilslut, so I don't think there's a lot of point in going though a huge amount of mental contortions and debating tactics trying to understand it or point out technical flaws and inconsistencies. It just is what it is for better or worse. Legoboy took a private chat conversation between him and Rob and posted it publicly. There is a history of doing that by members within this conflict, and sadly it does nothing to bring forth trust or understanding. In some places (EU) it can actually be illegal to post private conversations, and I know that Rob took exception to this (I also realize this event happened after the fact so it doesn't specifically explain why he included legoboy.) Perhaps you don't realize that Rob does not subscribe to the forum here any more ... so if you want real answers to your questions, you should contact him directly ... everything said here is speculative, 2nd hand, and in a vacuum ... part of the reason things can spin out of control.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:22 am

If we leave Israel aside for a moment, this post (...) is what got legoboy blocked in a few hours


Actually not according to Rob's own explanation - since we have the log of the conversation between him and legoboy, allow me to quote the relevant lines:

I simply refuse to provide service to people that spend 99% of their time bitching to other people on the forums.
(...)
he [Vincent] is having weird ideas to about what and what i have to do with my server too, but still in a polite manner
(...)
Money i happily spend on people i dont know. But not people that are on purpose creating problems.
(...)
For me you are part of the iam-col/jwocky ‘crew’; having more pleasure in posting bitching forum posts then working on fg


So according to Rob, this is about a history of spending time 'bitching' in the forum vs. contributing to FG, and he explicitly makes the comparison to Vincent who also inquires, but in a polite manner. So your whole premise is simply not true - the reason given is not that he simply asked what is going on.

I have a question. If Rob was so sure that he was acting righteously, why did he try to hide it?


I don't know, you'd have to ask him. But if it can be done, I also prefer a private note over a public tribunal. It occasionally happens that I put people in the forum on my ignore list - I inform them with a PM of my decision rather than posting a page of accusations - especially if the thing is a private matter (which in Rob's opinion at least, it is here).
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:33 am

curt wrote in Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:54 pm: I don't think Rob would claim he acted extra righteously in this matter, and I don't recall anyone here making that claim.

Excuse me? Thorsten claims that half of the forum is on Rob's side!

Thorsten wrote in Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:22 am:So according to Rob, this is about a history of spending time 'bitching' in the forum

Since we know that legoboy in general doesn't "bitch 99% of all the time", this makes no sense. So we can assume that Rob is referring to his "bitching" about blocking Israel.
Also note that he may not have wanted to give the real reason, and that not everybody spends very much time thinking before writing, especially if it's a chat message.

Thorsten wrote in Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:22 am:especially if the thing is a private matter

Things that concern public cannot be private. Then bribery is also private? :mrgreen:

curt wrote in Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:54 pm: Perhaps you don't realize that Rob does not subscribe to the forum here any more ...

It's his choice.
But since I agree with you that dissecting someone's motivations is somewhat questionable, I've instead created a poll where everyone can express their opinion without the risk of getting disrespectful and without the mental and emotional strain of getting in long arguments with Thorsten (or me :twisted:) and maybe we can close this discussion.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby curt » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:12 am

The poll really has no positive outcome. It is a good example of things that are likely to stir up more trouble. I don't see the purpose it serves other than giving a few people a reason to get more upset about this if they find they find some others that agree with them.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:51 am

Since my attempts to explain that there is another way of seeing things and that not everything is black and white do not seem to lead to a desirable outcome, I will remove myself from the discussion.

I agree with Curt - there is no imaginable outcome of that poll that would in any way be helpful. Please consider removing it.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby simbambim » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:42 pm

I don't see how a poll is any worse than this thread which has continued for 7 pages now with very little problems (there was only one moderator warning about getting off topic, as far as I remember). But it was my feeling that people hesitate to express their opinion because they don't want to get into arguments, which is understandable, so I created the poll to allow for easy and anonymous voting. My original idea was to replace this thread (since everything has been discussed already and it has been suggested to stop) with the poll with comments disabled (I thought I'd have this option myself when I create it), but moderators have not locked it - maybe because it would block voting, too? I don't know.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby gsagostinho » Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:52 pm

In my view, the problem is that nothing will change with this poll except that it will extend these discussions even further. It's clear that the ban from the MPserver12 won't be revoked (as it has been pointed out so many times, evilslut isn't even in the forum) so the only point to create new threads and polls about it is to express one's frustration. And that's fine, but that is just not constructive at all... I really hope the dust of all this situation (MP server and forum bans) can settle down soon enough so that the community can start to restore itself. I really miss the days I'd come to the forum to check the new posts and find only things about development, flying, interesting videos, screenshots, etc., the volume of which seem to have drastically diminished since all these things started.
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Re: Access to MPserver12

Postby Johan G » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:21 am

Since this discussion quite obviously is not leading anywhere, I am locking this topic.

On the positive side though, the tone have (generally) been less aggressive than in the last months.
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