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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby bugman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:29 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:16 pm:And AFAIK evilslut is not on the forums, so how did he know I denounced IAHM's blocking?


I guess he/she has a different name on the forum from what is listed on the wiki. Anyway, I hope things now calm down and peace is restored to the FlightGear world, and that your access is restored.

Regards,

Edward
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby simbambim » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:32 pm

... or he reads without logging on.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby radi » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:50 pm

simbambim wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:03 pm:
radi wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:52 pm:the maintainer is under no obligation to give a statement.

I'm afraid it's in his best interest to give a statement now, otherwise people are assuming the worst.

1. That is another problem, people jump to conclusions.
2. If there was a problem, and [EDIT]: the first thing some teen dude does is threatening me [/EDIT] and then calls me
legoboyvdlp wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:21 pm:You better have a backup evil slut.
Not calling you names, you called yourself one.

I'd sure as hell... do exactly nothing about it.
3. Why would he care what people think? Ah, right, because he might be losing users of a service he provides for free... oh dear.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby Crashpilot » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:02 pm

radi wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:52 pm:It doesn't matter what someone did or did not do -- if they're not paying, and did not enter into a contract, they have no right to demand anything from another private individual or institution. And the maintainer is under no obligation to give a statement.


Though the question is valid whether an official flightgear MP server has to accept an ethical standard or not.

This requires that there is a consensus on such an ethical standard and a definition what an official flightgear MP server is.

In my opinion a server becomes "official" if it is resolveable as a subdomain of flightgear.org, and/or if it is announced as an official one by the flightgear wiki. Both is true for MP Server 12:



mpserver12.flightgear.org => 62.129.143.50


The difference between a server completely unregarded to the flightgear project and one which is considered as an official MP server is quite obvious: The latter one acts in the name and behalf of the flightgear project and has hence to obey to some rules given by this project.

Apparently those rules are currently unwritten and I have no clue how those rules should look like, but I think most people would agree that banning of people due to their opinions or behavior in flightgear forums should be restricted.

That means, no, Rob/"evil slut" (or any other admin) does not have the freedom to ban people as he like to, as long as he is running an official server. For sure, he can delist his server from the wiki and remove the DNS entry for its IP, to regain this freedom.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 pm

radi wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:50 pm:2. If there was a problem, and [EDIT]: the first thing some teen dude does is threatening me [/EDIT] and then calls me
legoboyvdlp wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:21 pm:You better have a backup evil slut.
Not calling you names, you called yourself one.

I'd sure as hell... do exactly nothing about it.
3

Oh?
I was talking to evilslut.
So.... you don't happen to be him, do you?
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:11 pm

And AFAIK evilslut is not on the forums, so how did he know I denounced IAHM's blocking?
Because someone told him.


The forum is publicly visible - no need to register or log in to read what we write here.

I'm afraid it's in his best interest to give a statement now, otherwise people are assuming the worst.


And then?

I'm afraid we have an entitlement issue here - several people feel they have the right to something they do in reality not have - and that leads to clashes (and before anyone asks, I don't do MP at all, I don't know who administers the servers, I have hence been in contact with no server admin and I have also not requested or suggested to MP server admins to act in any way).

There is no right to use MP infrastructure - that's a service voluntarily provided by individuals. Just like there is no right for me to log into your computer and run my calculations there - it's your computer, and I can only use it by your permission.

There is no obligation of a server admin to distribute this service equally, independent of political considerations etc. - which is to say, if you allow me to use your computer, it doesn't mean anyone can on the grounds that you already allowed one person and you have to be fair.

There's no right to a statement by the server admin - you don't have to explain to everyone why he may not use your computer.

So there's no one taking away your rights here. Please get real and face reality. Asking nicely is far more likely to restore your access than demanding statements or else...

You can start argue what ethics demands in this case - then we'd have to first agree which type of ethics we're going to use ('ends', 'means' or 'virtue'). In all cases, we'd have freedom of the admin and property rights pitted against freedom of the user, and we'd have to come to a hypothesis what the cause of the measure might be, and whether it can be justified. It matters a lot what weight you give to one type of freedom, how you value property rights - so there's no one answer ethics gives, it's complicated as soon as 'ethics' doesn't mean 'my ethics'.

In my opinion a server becomes "official" if it is resolveable as a subdomain of flightgear.org, and/or if it is announced as an official one by the flightgear wiki.


Pretty much everyone can edit the wiki. You could declare anything official infrastructure by the mere expense of making a wiki entry. Doesn't fly. I think the first three words of your statement are the key here... As for the domain, that's also privately owned and paid for. See above...
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:15 pm

I can't even access the site to find an email address, and I don't use IRC, so how the *** do I contact him?
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:16 pm

The forum is publicly visible - no need to register or log in to read what we write here.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby bugman » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:16 pm

Thorsten wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:11 pm:Asking nicely is far more likely to restore your access than demanding statements or else...


Legoboy, I'd like to repeat this very wise advice!

Regards,

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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby radi » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:19 pm

legoboyvdlp wrote in Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 pm:I was talking to evilslut.
So.... you don't happen to be him, do you?

I'm not, though I'm starting to wish I had a server and could kick annoying/unreasonable people. Really, lego, grow up!
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby legoboyvdlp » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:21 pm

Ok ok ok ok , but I know it won't work.

Evilslut, could you please either post your reasoning by email to legoboyvdlp at gmail dot com or unblock me? I apologize for however I stepped on your toes.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby radi » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:41 pm

BTW you don't need any software installed or even register to use IRC, there are web clients, e.g. https://www.mibbit.com/, and Rob is apparently an admin of nl.irc.flightgear.org.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby simbambim » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:50 pm

There is no obligation of a server admin to distribute this service equally, independent of political considerations etc.

Oh really? Well that's called discrimination!

which is to say, if you allow me to use your computer, it doesn't mean anyone can on the grounds that you already allowed one person and you have to be fair.

No need to make up another case about using somebody's computer. We already have a case: two users banned unjustly from a server.
Is this really what we want our community to be?
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby Thorsten » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:06 pm

Oh really? Well that's called discrimination!


Yes, here's the news: I can choose to invite friends into my house, and they can be all white, or all male, or all female - because it's my private space. I don't have to make sure my friends have an equal distribution across race, gender, political or sexual orientation.

Maybe you should look up what discrimination really is.

We already have a case: two users banned unjustly from a server.
Is this really what we want our community to be?


It's the same case - funny you didn't notice that.

But for the sake of it - what is your plan?

We all take a vote?

Well, as has been pointed out a few times, FG is not a democracy but a meritocracy, so the influence of people scales with the importance of their contributions. And I'm afraid participating in MP events isn't a contribution in most people's eyes, it's using FG. But say we have the vote anyway and tell the server admin in question that we have voted and he should restore access. What do you do if he says 'So what?' We all threaten to not use the server in the future?

Even should the whole group of core developers make a decision to give free access, the server is still not under the legal control of the core dev group. So all that could be done is threaten to no longer allow the server to use the domain. And if the server admin in question says 'So what? Shoot yourself into the foot if you want.'

That is what 'privately owned infrastructure' means. It's under the control of a private person. He can do whatever he likes with it. He is voluntarily donating the service under conditions of his design, under no legal obligation to let us use the server. We can't command him to do anything, no matter how we vote. I know that's not how you want it to be, but that's how it is - so please deal with it.
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Re: **CENSORSHIP** of MPserver12!

Postby Johan G » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:24 pm

I am surprised that no one have mentioned the possibility, albeit slim, that this could be due to purely technical problems. ;)
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