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Making turns

Controlling your aircraft, using the autopilot etc.

Making turns

Postby Merik » Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:42 pm

Consider the Cross Country Flight Tutorial as an example; I'm good with almost every part of it except the part which includes making a couple of turns to join the circuit. I almost end up too near or too far and need to make very sharp turns (or go around the airport a few times) to get it straight. Any advice on how to improve my turns is appreciated.
I'm using FlightGear Git version on a Win 7 machine with an onboard ATI graphic card and 3 GB of RAM.

These are the link I've found useful: Types of AirspeedE6B emulatorAirspaces explained with examples
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Re: Making turns

Postby redneck » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:28 pm

Set your nav radio to the ILS you plan to use or an on-field VOR or NDB. That way, you can be sure you will be keeping a constant distance from the airport. Next, set your heading bug to the runway heading for the runway you plan to land on. This will remind you which runway you plan to land on, and will help you set up your 90 degree turns throughout the pattern.
Be aware of how long it will take from whatever distance you are using. For example, the c172p will cover a little more than 1 nm each minute, so if you are unsure how wide of a pattern you need to fly, decide how much time you will need to adjust line up with the runway right off your base leg. You will probably want at least 4 minutes. At 4 nm the airport will definitely be in visual range, assuming the weather is good, and you'll have about 4 minutes to make sure you are perfectly lined up and on the glideslope.
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Re: Making turns

Postby stuart » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:25 pm

For a c172p, you should really be flying the circuit visually, rather than relying on instruments (and your distance from the center of the airport will vary throughout the pattern, so using a DME isn't going to help much). Certainly a 4nm final in a 172 isn't really a circuit!

It's really just a question of practice makes perfect.

Have a look at this tutorial: http://www.flightgear.org/Docs/Tutorials/circuit/index.html. The screenshots are a bit out of date, but it should provide a good introduction to the basics of pattern/circuit flying.

Also, try the c172p pattern tutorial.

Some other tips:
- Make sure your downwind leg is genuinely parallel to the runway, and your base leg is properly at 90 degrees. It's very easy to end up too close due to a crosswind, or not quite being lined up. Try an airport with a convenient road to follow for downwind (On the base package KLVK - Livermore has one in just about the right place).
- Don't go too fast on your base leg. You should reduce power to descend - not just point the nose down!
- While you don't need to make a 2G turn, you should expect to need 20 degrees of bank.

-Stuart
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Re: Making turns

Postby redneck » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:33 pm

Sorry for giving crappy advice. Yes, 4 nm is rather short. It would recommend no shorter for being prepared to line up with the runway. I suggested the use of instruments as a secondary guide, assuming that he was already trying it visually. I guess I failed to make that clear, since glancing over your shoulder tends to be much more complicated in FG than a simple turn of the neck. When I tried flying patterns in airliners, I found it impossible to see the runway when glancing over your shoulder, as you wind up staring at a wall, which makes it imperative that you either have some sort of landmark as a visual reference, use a timer, or use instruments.
After ATCing for some time, I realized that DME could be used for patterns, when I found that pilots were already doing so, and requesting there turns only seconds before I was going to issue the instruction.
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Re: Making turns

Postby Merik » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:50 am

That's great redneck. I fully took the point you made. I'm going to give this a few tries, then post the feedback here.
I'm using FlightGear Git version on a Win 7 machine with an onboard ATI graphic card and 3 GB of RAM.

These are the link I've found useful: Types of AirspeedE6B emulatorAirspaces explained with examples
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Re: Making turns

Postby stuart » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:57 am

redneck wrote:Sorry for giving crappy advice. Yes, 4 nm is rather short. It would recommend no shorter for being prepared to line up with the runway.


I think we're talking at cross purposes here: for a light aircraft, 4nm is way too long. In real life I fly a circuit with a final of less than 1nm. In fact in some circumstances (restricted due to terrain/buildings) my turn from downwind to base ends 100yds from the runway. That's with a flexwing microlight, but even in a light aircraft like a 172, final for a normal circuit shouldn't' be more than a mile or so.

I suspect you're talking about doing a circuit in an airline. In that case, I can easily imagine that a jet would need a much wider circuit, though I've never seen them do so. I'm sure it's much more difficult as well as the visibility is less.

I think the military have longer patterns as well, but they tend to have a continuous turn from downwind to final with no real base leg.

redneck wrote: I suggested the use of instruments as a secondary guide, assuming that he was already trying it visually. I guess I failed to make that clear, since glancing over your shoulder tends to be much more complicated in FG than a simple turn of the neck. When I tried flying patterns in airliners, I found it impossible to see the runway when glancing over your shoulder, as you wind up staring at a wall, which makes it imperative that you either have some sort of landmark as a visual reference, use a timer, or use instruments.


Yes, I can see that flying a pattern in an airliner would be very difficult indeed. One reason that circling approaches are often not allowed by airline policy. I must admit I've never tried it myself. Horses for courses :)

Merik - what aircraft are you trying to fly? That will give us a better idea of what you're trying to achieve, and techniques to help.

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Re: Making turns

Postby Merik » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:21 pm

Right now, I'm trying to limit myself to C172p, and I'm still having problems with the circuit....

Perhaps if there were videos showing this to me, I would learn better ... or if someone could spend a few minutes watching me fly and making comments... Is that possible? (Actually, I'm going to open a new topic about this!)
I'm using FlightGear Git version on a Win 7 machine with an onboard ATI graphic card and 3 GB of RAM.

These are the link I've found useful: Types of AirspeedE6B emulatorAirspaces explained with examples
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Re: Making turns

Postby redneck » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:58 pm

stuart wrote:for a light aircraft, 4nm is way too long.

Obviously, it's been too long since I've flown light aircraft. I know you're a real pilot and obviously have more experience than I do with real life procedures. So, thanks, as it seems I was in need of some enlightenment as well :D
Merik wrote:or if someone could spend a few minutes watching me fly and making comments... Is that possible?

I could totally do that, either from following you or watching from the tower, with or without voice comms.
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Re: Making turns

Postby sim » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:13 am

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Re: Making turns

Postby redneck » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:41 am

Yeah, I could make a pattern flying vid. I'll see what I can come up with. I may have to polish up some, however.
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Re: Making turns

Postby Merik » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:24 pm

Thank you guys for your responses so far. I've been working on my turns without using instruments for a while. Please look at this map:

http://fgfs.i-net.hu/modules/fgtracker/ ... ID=1798308

I want to know which of the patterns is the correct one, the top one or the bottom one?
I'm using FlightGear Git version on a Win 7 machine with an onboard ATI graphic card and 3 GB of RAM.

These are the link I've found useful: Types of AirspeedE6B emulatorAirspaces explained with examples
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Re: Making turns

Postby MAKG » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:57 pm

On that runway, the bottom one. Generally, away from parallel runways. If there aren't any, left turns are the norm unless there is some reason not to (like an obstruction). Left turns give the pilot better visibility from the left hand seat. This is published in the FLIPbooks; see airnav.com. In fact, that site says all the runways at KIAH follow left patterns (which means they can't be used simultaneously -- seems like a bad idea for a huge airport -- for a counterexample, see KSFO; 28R uses a right pattern, and it is routinely used for tandem landings with 28L).
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Re: Making turns

Postby Merik » Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:33 pm

I'm not talking about the direction of the pattern (left or right). I'm talking about its size and form. The top one is more square in shape, and my downwind is further from the runway compared to the bottom pattern, which is more rectangular. Also, my 'base' is further from the runway in the bottom pattern (I did so to have more time to adjust myself to the runway).

What I'm trying to ask is, how far from the runway should I make each of the turns during the pattern? (After all, this topic is about making turns).
I'm using FlightGear Git version on a Win 7 machine with an onboard ATI graphic card and 3 GB of RAM.

These are the link I've found useful: Types of AirspeedE6B emulatorAirspaces explained with examples
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Re: Making turns

Postby Tuxklok » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:29 pm

You don't want to get too far from the runway. Downwind leg should probably be around a half mile or so from the runway I think normally. Take off and climb normally, make crosswind turn around 400-600ft AGL and continue climbing to pattern altitude (around 1000ft AGL usually). Turn to downwind depends on how wide you want or need the pattern to be, could come before or after reaching pattern altitude.

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