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The commercial aviation in FG - statement

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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wlbragg » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:24 am

@PavlinSierra,

What you say comes off as a demand for others to do what you want done merely because you think it needs to be done. Not only that, but you think it needs to be done because a friend is requesting something of you that they want. You can't demand volunteers to do your bidding and then be demeaning to them when they don't respond as you wish.

The way your asking for this work to be done is the same as me asking you to make me a video of the Cub flying an around the world mission.

I want you to make this video because I have a friend that wants me to post a video like this on my website. My friend wants to see a video of this because they might want to fly around the world in a Cub someday. I'm not good at making videos so I'm not going to do it. You know how to make videos so you need to do it for me. In fact I really don't know why you haven't done this for me yet, my friend wants me to have this on my website as soon as possible. I don't understand why you aren't working on it instead of making your videos. I need this, I can't do it myself. It would cost me too much to download a free video editor and a free video capture program. It would also cost me to much of my time to read all the free documentation teaching me how to use this software. How can you not understand I need this so I can fulfill my friends request of me. Why are you waisting so much time arguing with others here about fixing these aircraft when you could be working on my video. It could be finished by now.

You see, that is exactly what you sound like. I think we all get you really want this work to happen. But unless someone really takes pity on what you and your friends needs and wants, it's not going to happen. However, you absolutely can learn how to do this yourself, totally free of charge. All it will cost you is TIME.

Thorsten and others, including myself, are not trying to be "dogs" to you, they are trying to educate you as to the way FlightGear and much of life works, especially volunteer work. I'm sure the words you speak sound good and correct in your mind but they don't come off that way to the people reading this forum who contributing to FlightGear by volunteering their time and effort.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby GinGin » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:28 am

Did you read the answers before replying?
Its illustration of talking about potatoes and answering carrots

Thanks for informing me 320 can't fly 19 hours by the way .
Just do some stop over and move to something else.

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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby Thorsten » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:29 am

You are insolting me, you are the person that makes me angry. So, if I been kicked out from here it will be because you can not be kicked out. Thats the situation.


So much for the fantasy.

In reality, you're complaining that the FG developers somehow fail to deliver what you want and I explain to you why that is an unrealistic expectation and why your attitude does not help. If that explanation makes you angry, you need to look into the mirror to see the problem.

You are just want to hate me. That's why you are posting unaproperiate and with bad tune in this topic.


I'm at a loss as to why precisely I would hate you - can you fill me in on that part of the fantasy? Did you do anything to me to make me hate you, or do I just wake up and hate random people? How does this work?

For your information, in reality I think your attitude that FG developers are slackers who just don't care for fixing aircraft and fail to deliver a realistic simulation is just hugely offensive - especially delivered to a group of volunteers. And I object to such an attitude, and I will continue to point this out whenever you carry this kind of attitude into the forum.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby PavlinSierra » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am

wlbragg,
I fly commercial planes. I do not fly this plane. I do not want to fly this plane. So, your reqwest must go on someone that fly this. Not to me. GinGin, I do not know that perfectly english as you can see - language barrier, so , I am answering with carrots. Because I am bulgarian. Learn bulgarian and again talk to me. Till than you will see carrots not potatoes. I already tell all of you - when you are doing job do it properly. If yuo are leaving this job on the middle you put the users in a bad situation. If yuo all do not have time do not dev. enything. Better to has 3 workable models instead of 203 not workable. That is a fact. You waste 6 pages arguing about your planes and development time, but you did not fix the pitch of 787. Or the flare condition of A380. Mannor of preorities. and your choice is bad. That's the truth.
And I can not fix them. So, please stop asking me to be dev. I will be not a dev. I am another role in here.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby Wecsje » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:43 am

What role do you have then? To go around here and insult every single dev, pilot and atc controller about their doings, and you making us obey you as if you are the king of the world (SPOILER ALERT: you are not)? Mate, if you want to be respected by the community, you better change your tone, and a far as I see, nobody is gonna go repair those planes because you need them to be repaired. Either learn developing yourself, or wait until some dev team starts work on the plane (IDG is working on a private project, which will be public in late September, the MD-11 will be public soon, in the next few weeks, and work on an a380 will not happen within the next half yearl).

So either do it yourself, or have patience. But stop complaining and pretending you are the boss here. Its really childish.

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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby Thorsten » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 am

I already tell all of you - when you are doing job do it properly. If yuo are leaving this job on the middle you put the users in a bad situation.


Pavlin - you've been given a gift - a gift of thousands of working hours.

If someone buys you a new computer - do you say 'Thank you!' Or do you say 'But I wanted an UK keyboard - and really, three USB ports would have been nicer. And if you buy this computer for me, at least go the whole way and install a different Windows version, I can't work with this one and I don't have the time to go through the installation manual myself. This is crap you're giving me.'

This is the same situation here.

You got the software we wrote - for free. As a gift. As far as I'm concerned - we owe you nothing. Not even that the software works for you. Certainly not that you can do all flights you want. As far as I'm concerned, you owe the developers a 'Thank you' if you like the software.

We also don't owe your friend anything. If you promised to do a certain flight for someone else, that's your problem - I didn't make such a promise, and I feel zero obligation to help you fulfill your promise. If your computer is bad and you feel it doesn't do what you want, that's also your problem. I'm just giving you lots of work for free - don't blame me for whatever circumstances in your life prevented you from getting a better computer - whatever it was, it wasn't my doing, and neither was it the rest of the developers.

If you don't like what you can do with FG as is, the solution is simple - don't use FG. Use a software that actually meets your expectations. You've been given FG for free, but without any obligation to use it. And you're not making any of us happier if you use it.

Okay?

So get this into your head: Stop telling volunteers what and when they should do. They owe you nothing, but as long as you use FG you owe them.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:10 pm

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:18 am:GinGin,
For your information I am not a dev. I can not be dev.

you can absolutely be an aircraft dev... or maybe a FDM dev? just because someone is a core developer doesn't mean that they can develop craft... just because someone is a craft developer doesn't mean they can do FDMs or 3D modeling... it looks like you are using the term "dev" with much too wide a brush when you are painting your picture...

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:18 am:So, the dev.'s have to think. I do not understand why Thorsten, who is dev. space crafts is in this topic. He is not helpful.

he is explaining his reasoning to you... it is extremely helpful to understand why he won't do what you are asking... it is very similar to my anecdotes i posted yesterday (eg: my wrecked Chrysler 300 sitting under the trees waiting for parts)... you are being much too strict in what you are allowing or are accepting as others explanations... loosen up, man! ;)

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:18 am:And, for your information, A320 cna not fly 19 hours straight. Or 14, or 10 even. Her limit is 5-8 hours. That's it. So, actually we are not disquiss enything helpful. We are just wasting time in bst. Sorry, but true.

no, ""we"" (inclusive) are just chatting in a public forum... people are offering their ideas and opinions... that's human nature...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:13 pm

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am:wlbragg,
I fly commercial planes. I do not fly this plane. I do not want to fly this plane. So, your reqwest must go on someone that fly this. Not to me.

whoa! whoa! whoa! wait! this is EXACTLY what you are doing! you are complaining that other craft developers and/or core developers won't fix the craft you are (basically) demanding that someone other than you fix... the analogy is spot on...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:18 pm

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am:I do not know that perfectly english as you can see - language barrier, so , I am answering with carrots. Because I am bulgarian. Learn bulgarian and again talk to me.

now you're starting to sound like ""ugly americans" that demand others speak their language instead of using a translator or learning the language... it is another copout...

NOTE: i tried to post a google translate: english -> bulgarian of the above but this forum is not configured to accept UTF-8 characters so it would not let me post... i had to remove it and add this note that i did, at least, try...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:25 pm

Wecsje wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:43 am:and a far as I see, nobody is gonna go repair those planes because you need them to be repaired.

AFAICS, i would hazard a guess that some devs (in general) and/or folks with skills that might be able to fix the craft in question simply won't do it just to spite him and his apparent attitude... since we have only written words that do not convey any inflection or emotion, it is hard to truly understand what some may write... we might see an obnoxious attitude but in reality it may be quite passive and sincere but the chosen words obfuscate that...

anecdote: i had someone tell me something in translated German-to-English one time... it rather upset me until they pointed out the alternate translations of various German words to English words... then reading the same statement with other English words made all the difference in the perceived attitude of the original statement...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby Wecsje » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:29 pm

+1
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wkitty42 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:31 pm

Thorsten wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 am:If someone buys you a new computer - do you say 'Thank you!' Or do you say 'But I wanted an UK keyboard - and really, three USB ports would have been nicer. And if you buy this computer for me, at least go the whole way and install a different Windows version, I can't work with this one and I don't have the time to go through the installation manual myself. This is crap you're giving me.'

that's funny! not as in "hahaha" but funny as in "minds think alike"... i actually had a mental conversation with myself, yesterday, after getting off the discord where this conversation was also taking place... my mental conversation was about possibly sending pavlin a new system but then there were the mental replies like you suggest... of course, the first thing is if the system sent would make it to him and make it there intact... it definitely would not be a winwhatever box, either... probably a US keyboard, too, and maybe a wired optical mouse... just the computer with storage and memory and a video card similar to what i'm using now... no monitor, of course... but yeah, i could hear the same responses as you write... i tossed the idea out because of the uncertainties and likely complaints :(
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby wlbragg » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:54 pm

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am:wlbragg,
I fly commercial planes. I do not fly this plane. I do not want to fly this plane. So, your reqwest must go on someone that fly this.

Did you really not get that I was making a point as to how you come off. Not that I actually want you to do this?
Swap "Cub" for the words "commercial airline" in what I asked you for and then read it again. You honestly can't understand that I have no right to ask you in that manner to do that simply because me and my friend want it?

So to use your analogy, no one wants to work on the aircraft you want them to work on, they all work on other aircraft. None of them want to work on your aircraft. Your request must fall on a someone else that is not a FlightGear developer yet.

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am:And I can not fix them. So, please stop asking me to be dev. I will be not a dev. I am another role in here.

To use your analogy, again. We can not fix them, So please stop asking us to be the developers of those aircraft. We will not be. We are all in another role here.

PavlinSierra wrote in Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am:I am another role in here.

I know what your role is here, you stated it in another thread. You basically said your role was to try to be the best pilot in FG so you could make money from it. That also rubbed me the wrong way but I didn't respond because you have the right to do that.
That doesn't mean I have to like or respect you for your lack of manners and your inability to comprehend how that might come off to others who donate all this because they enjoy creating stuff and are super generous. Not that they are here to provide you a way to make money off their generosity and then complain when they don't follow your vision of how they should proceed to facilitate your get rich quick scheme.

How often do you see multiple participants make this type of attempt to help another understand that the way they are dealing with a situation is not the correct way?
Has even one person jumped in to say, "hey wait a minute, Pavlin is right to ask for this in this manner"?

You are getting this response from the community because your statement of "The commercial aviation in FG" is not only flawed but also when trying to explain it to you it seems to become more obvious that it is not a simple language barrier but more alike a much needed bad manners lesson.

Like I said before, I know the logic of your words sound right in your head, but they are translating as somewhat insulting.
I think more importantly, we are all trying to tell you, they are not the correct way to ask for something from a bunch of volunteers who are already donating hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of time across the whole spectrum of flight simulation.

I really hope this sinks in. I honestly wish this discussion will help you change your perception of how this project works so you and others can enjoy it even more.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby CaptB » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:46 pm

@PavlinSierra

I don't think you understand how work and time intensive aircraft development is, so let me draw a picture for you. I stared the 763 from scratch in 2015, part of which I spent collecting documentation in order to be prepared, then commenced with modeling following that documentation closely. In 2017 part of the 3D model had to be amended since new, more precise documentation became available, as well as some valuable advise from people who have more experience in aircraft modeling.

We will soon have the 4th quarter of 2017 and I might have a complete 3D model by the end of the year and move to programming systems. Two years of unpaid work, squeezed between my wife, child and extended family, as well as work and other hobbies and battling chronic back pains so yes the aircraft is still not in a satisfactory level, and probably will not be for at least another year.

People here extended their hands, and wanted you to join in by contributing as little or as much as you can, but you refuse and continue to criticise. The least you can do is show respect for their work, even if it's not finished or is not perfect. All of them sacrificed a good chunk of their life to make it happen and have done certainly more than whine.
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Re: The commercial aviation in FG - statement

Postby EMH333 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:55 pm

The Flightgear community is pretty amazing. We get a whole bunch of stuff for free and if we know what we are doing can even contribute our own stuff. I have a tendency not to talk a lot on forums or Discord because I really don't often have a lot to say and there are people who are a whole lot more knowledgeable about the subjects. But I felt like I needed to say something here. So here is my opinion after being with FlightGear for several years (Only about one year on the forums but I have been familiar with the project for at least two years).

I believe that aircraft devs do not owe us anything or are forced to fix or update their planes because we tell them too. Are there planes in FlightGear that I wish worked better? Sure, but I know that I should be thankful for the devs for at least doing the work that they did. In the past couple months, I have seen some pretty amazing progress being made on a whole bunch of planes. Sure it is slow progress, but with every new feature, it is reaffirming the reasons I decided to stick with the project.

The goal of the FlightGear project is to create a sophisticated and open flight simulator framework for use in research or academic environments, pilot training, as an industry engineering tool, for DIY-ers to pursue their favorite interesting flight simulation idea, and last but certainly not least as a fun, realistic, and challenging desktop flight simulator. We are developing a sophisticated, open simulation framework that can be expanded and improved upon by anyone interested in contributing.


As previously mentioned by Thorsten, this is the mission statement of FlightGear. I want to point out the fact that is does not specify that we are done, the project is fully complete and now we are just sitting and waiting on our butts.
We are developing....
Notice the tense here. This is to point out that the FlightGear project is a work in progress. It will never be done. It will never be complete. And when most of the community thinks that it is complete, someone will point out that the features we were working on are outdated and totally flawed, so we will begin the process again. That is the way it is with Open Source projects and you have to learn to deal with it.

Some community members may argue with each other but for the most part we are all mature here, we can handle that. It's pretty impressive the amount of professional communication that goes on every single day. I think that many people in the FG community, maybe even without realizing it, have adopted the core idea of a Wikipedia principal, "Assume good faith" People in the FG community are not out to get you or out to cause you harm, they just want to understand and do what they can to assist you if you have a problem they can reasonably help with. Every single person I have interacted with in this community has been totally positive and very reasonable about his or her requests from me.

As for what I do for the FlightGear project, not a lot. And I will admit that because I know it is true. I would love to dive deep into the source code and make some major contribution, but I am still pretty far off from that. I do what I can though. I am interested in ATC so I will every once in a while do an ATC session and even if I get one or two pilots I call it a success. If someone in the community sees a void of documentation about a certain subject, I try and make a video that explains how it works. I suck at making videos but I still try because I know it will help the community as a whole.
I am a student, I basically don't have any free time during the school year so it takes quite a bit of time before I am able to react to a need that I could help with. I don't try to help the community or be ATC because I have to, I do it because it is fun and I enjoy it. I work on projects like this and it helps me to keep a grip on the idea that I can't do everything and I have to rely on other people to help me get to a point I am satisfied with and that take time. Could I make better videos and be a better ATC? Definitely! But it's an adventure that takes time, lots of time, that I don't always have.

As has been reiterated on this post many times, if you want to see change, be the change. And even if you don't want to be the change, you should at least ask the person politely.

Thanks for the opportunity to let me speak and get out of my comfort zone for a bit, I am going back into my introvert self now.
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