Board index FlightGear Support Flying

(Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Controlling your aircraft, using the autopilot etc.

(Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am

Searched around, aside from one or more isolated threads originally about something else, can't seem to find info on this.

Now, I know there is a wikipedia page on this, and I read through it... but that is strictly an example of what the real-life ATC does. My thoughts are, this is online, and there are always some things that can't correlate to real ATC, such as, for example:

1. If I am at KOAK and the only ATC is at KSFO, do I still communicate with him? (If not, when do I do so, ie entering near the KSFO airspace, or all the time. And about what.)

2. Sometimes I see that the ATC seems a little busy, do I leave him to do his thing (when I'm already in the air), just keep quite for a while, or continue with any reports.

3. In the case that airspace around several airports seem quite close together, so if I am landing at say, KOAK, I might intrude into one of KSFO landing runways. What to do in those situations. Usually what altitude do small planes keep at, or, can we skip these parts, partly to reduce the workload on any, or depend on them ATCs.

I would like both ATC and pilots point of view. Also, take into account those using only keyboard to chat because (like me, I don't have a mic, but even so, my internet speed is so terrible it would not help). I find myself pausing just to type, and what effect would that have on mp, do the plane freeze, or disappear.

Most of the time I just do my own thing unless I have something important to say, or landing at an airport that I know has ATC. Also, recently, due combination oof plane choice, no menu autopilot (built-in AP with a mind off its own) and wind/turbulance, my flights look like zigzags across the maps, and sometimes even worse, the aircraft AP starts flying in circles for no apparent reason (usually when I'm busy in another window). I can imagine that can either amuse or irritate some controllers.

Keep in mind I have not tried being ATC before (what do I need to download for it) so I am posting this with much ignorance..... Discuss?
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Thu May 08, 2014 2:42 am

I am already messing up. I thought I put this in the Flying forum... oh welll :oops: :P
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby chris_blues » Thu May 08, 2014 5:08 pm

When flying online, with ATC near, I believe it could be confusing if you pause the simulation, because for the time it is paused, you will disappear for the others, and after resuming you will reappear, at the very spot, where you vanished. In order to keep a working traffic flow, I guess it's better not to pause. Imagine, if you were a busy ATC, and got all pilots lined up in a nice row to approach, and suddenly one of them disappears, just to reappear a while later, leaving a big gap in the line (where you were before), and messing up the line (where you reappeared) - the pilots behind you are now all around you. I could understand, that some ATC might get upset... Though, I've never seen such heavy traffic in FG...

About ATC near you, I have found, that it's always a good idea, to contact them, and if in doubt, ask them, what they expect you to do. So, if I was sitting in KOAK and find an ATC in KSFO, I would contact him/her and ask, what you should do. Note, there are always beginners and professionals in FG, as pilots and as ATC. Some maybe wouldn't mind ignoring you, so you could go your own way, whilst some might take great offense when you ignore them! So, as a consequence, I always ask first.
In my experience, e.g. when passing EDDF with jomo in the tower, I always get asked, if I was inbound EDDF or just passing by.

And if I find myself not in the mood for flying with ATC, I simple go offline, flying by myself... 8)

About the ATC-side of things, I couldn't tell - I never did any ATCing...
Don't hesitate to let me know if I'm incorrect or just annoying! As long as you do it gently! :)
Debian testing 64bit - Athlon II 2x2.6GHz - 8GB RAM - GeForce GTS 450
Citation II
User avatar
chris_blues
 
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 1:30 pm
Location: claws of real life
Callsign: chris_blues
Version: GIT
OS: Debian 8 64

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby Lydiot » Thu May 08, 2014 5:43 pm

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:1. If I am at KOAK and the only ATC is at KSFO, do I still communicate with him? (If not, when do I do so, ie entering near the KSFO airspace, or all the time. And about what.)

2. Sometimes I see that the ATC seems a little busy, do I leave him to do his thing (when I'm already in the air), just keep quite for a while, or continue with any reports.

3. In the case that airspace around several airports seem quite close together, so if I am landing at say, KOAK, I might intrude into one of KSFO landing runways. What to do in those situations. Usually what altitude do small planes keep at, or, can we skip these parts, partly to reduce the workload on any, or depend on them ATCs.

I would like both ATC and pilots point of view.


I think it depends on the area and the ATC and the pilots. KSFO is a different beast because you get a lot of beginners that spawn "randomly" at airports and don't really want to be controlled but still want MP. If realism is wanted then I'd guess it'd depend on how many ATCs there were in the area. If there's only one guy at KSFO then he should control the entire airspace since most planes end up there. So in that case I'd recommend that the ATC makes contact if he has time, or that the pilots do. But then again, some ATCs don't really care about it that much and just want to keep track of the immediate area around the airport, takeoffs and landings. Many ATCs don't know or care about vectoring from IAF to final approach, or even final approach. Some just say "clear to land" after you've said you're inbound, even if you're like 15 minutes out (a lot can happen in 15 minutes).

If there are several ATCs at those airports then they'd have to figure it out together if they want to control the entire airspace and separate traffic. It gets annoying as an ATC when what you describe happens and one doesn't know if a plane is inbound or just flying around for fun or going to another airport.

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am: Also, take into account those using only keyboard to chat because (like me, I don't have a mic, but even so, my internet speed is so terrible it would not help). I find myself pausing just to type, and what effect would that have on mp, do the plane freeze, or disappear.


AutoPilot is better than pause I think. Just engage it, fly straight, type message, disengage A/P. A plane that freezes or disappears is worse (to an ATC) than an uncontrolled one that's flying somewhat predictably in my opinion.

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:Most of the time I just do my own thing unless I have something important to say, or landing at an airport that I know has ATC. Also, recently, due combination oof plane choice, no menu autopilot (built-in AP with a mind off its own) and wind/turbulance, my flights look like zigzags across the maps, and sometimes even worse, the aircraft AP starts flying in circles for no apparent reason (usually when I'm busy in another window). I can imagine that can either amuse or irritate some controllers.


I think a quick message saying you're flying uncontrolled will be enough.

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:Keep in mind I have not tried being ATC before (what do I need to download for it) so I am posting this with much ignorance..... Discuss?


The level of knowledge and time allotted by ATCs is varying as much as that of pilots I think. Nowadays when I fly I start asking the ATC how long he'll be there, because some ATCs are really annoying in that they give out vectoring and then log off without saying anything. So if I'm not paying attention I'll be waiting for an update that never comes. Super-annoying. And then other guys very good at it.

The different competence and intent is why it's hard to nail down guides I think. I appreciate the discussion though.
Lydiot
 
Posts: 988
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu May 08, 2014 7:44 pm

Most important to most ATCs seems to be, if you are crossing in their range, to inform them. I just tell them something like "fyi, heading for XXXX". Then they know they don't need to guide me or, if they see, I am in conflict with one of thiers, they send me around or to another alt and everything is good.
Jabberwocky
Retired
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:36 pm
Callsign: JWOCKY
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Ubuntu 14.04

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby elgaton » Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm

Hope to answer your question as a regular ATC on FlightGear...
HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:1. If I am at KOAK and the only ATC is at KSFO, do I still communicate with him? (If not, when do I do so, ie entering near the KSFO airspace, or all the time. And about what.)

Since there are not so many ATCs in FlightGear, every tower controller generally "owns" the sector approx. 60 NM around his airport (that's the distance plane usually need to descend from their cruise levels to an acceptable altitude in preparation for landing); thus, you should contact him when flying into his airspace. (Note that I used the term "flying"; as you assume here that KOAK is not controlled, you don't need to ask KSFO for clearance to taxi or take off, though it's a good practice to announce your intentions on the multiplayer chat. You should, however, contact him when airborne, so you can turn in case you get into the path of another aircraft).

Should you forget contacting the controller, he will usually reach out to you by asking if you're flying to his airport and detailing the available communication means; e.g. "HJ1AN: welcome to the Verona area, are you inbound LIPX? (FGCOM 118.65 or Mumble on mumble.allfex.org)" (this means: "If you're coming to my airport, or just passing my airspace, contact me via text chat, FGCom or Mumble").

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:2. Sometimes I see that the ATC seems a little busy, do I leave him to do his thing (when I'm already in the air), just keep quite for a while, or continue with any reports.

When on voice, just wait until the frequency is clear (everyone else has finished speaking); it does not take that much (let's say thirty seconds at most). When using text, just type - on OpenRadar controllers have the ability to filter the chat messages by callsign, so we can follow the single conversations.

Never enter an airspace without contacting the controller (unless you have an emergency in progress, and, if so, please squawk 7700 so that we know it and speak to us at the first opportunity). That's a good way to get ignored. :wink:

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:3. In the case that airspace around several airports seem quite close together, so if I am landing at say, KOAK, I might intrude into one of KSFO landing runways. What to do in those situations. Usually what altitude do small planes keep at, or, can we skip these parts, partly to reduce the workload on any, or depend on them ATCs.

If KOAK is not controlled, just inform KSFO when you're entering his sector.

If KOAK is controlled, nowadays OpenRadar has a flightplan exchange system most controllers are starting to use, so that the KOAK controller can specify you're flying there and your aircraft is being controlled by him. This way, KSFO won't contact you at all.
The same system also allows controllers to hand off aircraft (transfer control from an ATC to another) when you fly between airspaces - you will just be instructed to "change frequency". (In these situations, generally the controllers agree beforehand to perform handoffs when the planes are flying over a certain fix/navaid).

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:Also, recently, due combination oof plane choice, no menu autopilot (built-in AP with a mind off its own) and wind/turbulance, my flights look like zigzags across the maps, and sometimes even worse, the aircraft AP starts flying in circles for no apparent reason (usually when I'm busy in another window). I can imagine that can either amuse or irritate some controllers.

I must confess it can be irritating as it seems the pilot might not be willing to comply or is not able to fly the aircraft, which can prove critical in dense traffic situation, so a controller is usually more prone to ignore that player after a warning.

Finally, I suggest you have a look at the ATC phraseology and ATC best practices pages to get familiar and then to start at a manned airport at a time when there isn't much traffic (just make sure NOT to start on a runway), mentioning the fact that you're new.
NIATCA 2nd admin, regular ATC at LIPX and creator of the LIPX custom scenery
elgaton
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:58 pm
Callsign: I-ELGA/LIPX_TW
Version: Git
OS: Windows + Arch Linux

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby chris_blues » Thu May 08, 2014 11:45 pm

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:[...]I have not tried being ATC before (what do I need to download for it)[...]

I'm not sure if the "aircraft" ATC is in the standard base package, but on the aircraft download page it should be, though many ATC's have switched to OpenRadar.
Don't hesitate to let me know if I'm incorrect or just annoying! As long as you do it gently! :)
Debian testing 64bit - Athlon II 2x2.6GHz - 8GB RAM - GeForce GTS 450
Citation II
User avatar
chris_blues
 
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon May 03, 2010 1:30 pm
Location: claws of real life
Callsign: chris_blues
Version: GIT
OS: Debian 8 64

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Fri May 09, 2014 12:42 am

Thanks for all your advice/


elgaton wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm:
HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 2:41 am:Also, recently, due combination oof plane choice, no menu autopilot (built-in AP with a mind off its own) and wind/turbulance, my flights look like zigzags across the maps, and sometimes even worse, the aircraft AP starts flying in circles for no apparent reason (usually when I'm busy in another window). I can imagine that can either amuse or irritate some controllers.


I must confess it can be irritating as it seems the pilot might not be willing to comply or is not able to fly the aircraft, which can prove critical in dense traffic situation, so a controller is usually more prone to ignore that player after a warning.


OK, I will try to hack the autopilot wing level into the plane (currently it doesn't have it), the AP does not handle well if there is some turbulance, and I'm not sure if the built in AP chase the attitude indicator, I found out my attitude indicator sometimes just go out of whack (I don't set the MTBFs), on certain aircraft so it might explain why my AP just goes nuts. WHY it goes out of whack.. I don't know. I blame my internet.

elgaton wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm:Finally, I suggest you have a look at the ATC phraseology and ATC best practices pages to get familiar and then to start at a manned airport at a time when there isn't much traffic (just make sure NOT to start on a runway), mentioning the fact that you're new.


Yup, I read the wiki pages, it is indeed helpful, but I wonder if there is something others can add on top of that, which can hopefulyl make its way into the wiki itself.
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Fri May 09, 2014 12:48 am

Jabberwocky wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 7:44 pm:Most important to most ATCs seems to be, if you are crossing in their range, to inform them. I just tell them something like "fyi, heading for XXXX". Then they know they don't need to guide me or, if they see, I am in conflict with one of thiers, they send me around or to another alt and everything is good.


I do that. The last time I did that though, I got complaints about spamming (I wasn't) but that is another story. (Blame my internet, which makes my browsing and data transfer slower than 56k, but for some reason allows me to get on FG mp relatively well most of the time :roll: )

I like multiplay for reasons I'm sure others do too, there is some people to talk to, and I can watch others fly (they sometimes do or say hilarious things that just make me lol)
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby elgaton » Fri May 09, 2014 8:05 am

HJ1AN wrote in Fri May 09, 2014 12:42 am:OK, I will try to hack the autopilot wing level into the plane (currently it doesn't have it), the AP does not handle well if there is some turbulance, and I'm not sure if the built in AP chase the attitude indicator, I found out my attitude indicator sometimes just go out of whack (I don't set the MTBFs), on certain aircraft so it might explain why my AP just goes nuts. WHY it goes out of whack.. I don't know. I blame my internet.

The autopilot system was slightly changed in FG 2.12 and some aircraft has not been updated since then; in these models the AP won't perform lateral navigation. It's not your Internet connection (when you're at an airport with a medium number of players, FG requires about 16 KB/s of bandwidth, 32 or 64 if you're using voice as well; however, I've made it run acceptably giving it only 4 KB/s, some messages got lost from time to time though).

HJ1AN wrote in Fri May 09, 2014 12:42 am:
elgaton wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm:Finally, I suggest you have a look at the ATC phraseology and ATC best practices pages to get familiar and then to start at a manned airport at a time when there isn't much traffic (just make sure NOT to start on a runway), mentioning the fact that you're new.


Yup, I read the wiki pages, it is indeed helpful, but I wonder if there is something others can add on top of that, which can hopefulyl make its way into the wiki itself.

de profundis made a Cross Country Tutorial which should make its way into the official documentation; also, these days I'm rewriting the ATC Tutorial wiki page and I plan to shoot some video tutorials featuring full ATC coverage when I'm free (that is, in a few months' time, when exams will not get in the way).
NIATCA 2nd admin, regular ATC at LIPX and creator of the LIPX custom scenery
elgaton
 
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:58 pm
Callsign: I-ELGA/LIPX_TW
Version: Git
OS: Windows + Arch Linux

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Sat May 10, 2014 7:43 am

elgaton wrote in Fri May 09, 2014 8:05 am:The autopilot system was slightly changed in FG 2.12 and some aircraft has not been updated since then; in these models the AP won't perform lateral navigation. It's not your Internet connection (when you're at an airport with a medium number of players, FG requires about 16 KB/s of bandwidth, 32 or 64 if you're using voice as well; however, I've made it run acceptably giving it only 4 KB/s, some messages got lost from time to time though).


I did some testing (it is not very scientific btw, just really an observation) I believe that particular problem was that the AP doesn't want to roll the ailerons more than about 2/5 of the way. So with the natural tendency of the plane to roll, combined with turbulance bumping the plane around, that 2/5 roll is simply not enough to counter it, so as the plane went around past a certain point AP just thought: OK ill turn the other way, it's it's nearest to that direction now, and this keeps repeating until the plane just flies around in circles.

Until my connection is fixed, there are many problems may have come from that - one is that I have been accused of spamming before just by typing msg saying i'm passing through. So nowadays I am quite hesitant to type something unless that happens again.

elgaton wrote in Thu May 08, 2014 10:46 pm:de profundis made a Cross Country Tutorial which should make its way into the official documentation; also, these days I'm rewriting the ATC Tutorial wiki page and I plan to shoot some video tutorials featuring full ATC coverage when I'm free (that is, in a few months' time, when exams will not get in the way).


That would be awesome, thank you all for the contributions. Videos would be best as for reading is concerned I read the wiki pages over and over, but somehow I keep missing key points from it. The difference is if I print it out in book form, my brain process it much better.
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Postby HJ1AN » Thu May 15, 2014 8:34 am

A link I found

"New Pilot's Guide to ATC Communication"

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students ... ccomm.html

Quite helpful
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu May 15, 2014 9:00 pm

Nice, thanks!
Jabberwocky
Retired
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:36 pm
Callsign: JWOCKY
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Ubuntu 14.04

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby Johan G » Thu May 15, 2014 10:42 pm

HJ1AN wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 8:34 am:http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/presolo/special/atccomm.html


I noticed that it uses "taxi into position and hold" instead of "line up and wait" hinting that it might be a few years old...


/!\ Warning: In-depth post. ;)

However: :wink:
New Pilot's Guide to ATC Communication wrote:The Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) is the best reference for learning good ATC communication skills and phraseology. Because the FAA writes it, the AIM also is the most authoritative source for IFR procedures. Unlike the federal aviation regulations, the AIM is not legally binding, but it is the most current and detailed source of FAA-recommended procedures.


Quickest way to get there is through FAA Home > Air Traffic > Air Traffic Plans and Publications. However the while you can find that information in the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) the controller specific document is "JO 7110.65V, Air Traffic Control". Unfortunately the phraseology is interwoven in AIM for pilots and JO 7110.65 for controllers (though of course the phraseology is the same for both).

Note though that the US procedures differ from ICAO recommended procedures (most national regulations seem to do that). A look in AIP GEN 1.7, Differences From ICAO Standards, Recommended Practices and Procedures (page GEN 1.7-15 in the current version), lists differences between ICAO Doc. 4444, PANS ATM (Procedures for Air Navigation Services – Air Traffic Management), which seems to be the international document guiding national regulations on this subject.
Low-level flying — It's all fun and games till someone looses an engine. (Paraphrased from a YouTube video)
Improving the Dassault Mirage F1 (Wiki, Forum, GitLab. Work in slow progress)
Johan G
Moderator
 
Posts: 5634
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: Sweden
Callsign: SE-JG
IRC name: Johan_G
Version: 3.0.0
OS: Windows 7, 32 bit

Re: (Sim) ATC communications - Forum guides?

Postby HJ1AN » Fri May 16, 2014 1:31 am

Johan G wrote in Thu May 15, 2014 10:42 pm:Note though that the US procedures differ from ICAO recommended procedures (most national regulations seem to do that).


Wait, what? Darn worldwide double standards. 8)


I feel that "line up (with the runway) and wait" is more specific than "taxi into position (on runway?) and hold" simply because (to me at least) "taxi" means moving the aircraft on its own power anywhere from the taxiway to the runway. And by saying that "position" it seems to me to mean whatever position. "Line up" can only mean one thing, that is, you line up on the runway.

Well that's how I, the uninformed, perceive it anyway.
User avatar
HJ1AN
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:45 am
Callsign: HJ888
Version: 3.4
OS: OS X


Return to Flying

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest