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CH Rudder Pedals

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CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:36 am

Folks, I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death because my search on the subject returns a gazillion results. My problem is I'm an old guy and don't understand the structure of the XML files nor the shorthand being used here. FG is installed on my D: drive (it's a SSD) and I'm having trouble getting the CHj Pro Pedals working. In the Win10 game controller app I'm told the pedals are set as the "default device." and the slider works fine in the app. In the FG structure I'm finding the following... under FG\bin I find js0.xml, js1.xml and js2.xml. As near as I can determine the js0.xml is the file for the pedals and It's contents read...

<?xml version="1.0"?>
-<PropertyList>
-<axis>
<desc>Rudder</desc>
<direction>right</direction>
-<binding>
<command>property-scale</command>
<property>/controls/flight/rudder</property>
<factor type="double">-1</factor>
<power type="int">1</power>
</binding>
<dead-band type="double">0</dead-band>
</axis>
<name type="string">CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals </name>
</PropertyList>

The formatting didn't make the trip but you get the idea. It may be the proper time here to tell you that js demo.exe shows the name as "CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals" In the Control Panel Game Controllers app it shows up the same way as does in the File | Joystick Configuration in FG. There I can see the slider changing the values in Axis 2 but can't find a way to tell the sim that's the rudder input.

Next, under FlightGwar 2017.3\data I find the Joysticks.xml file which seems to be some (vague, at least to me) instructions about setting the joysticks up. Boring down further in that directory (OK, OK... Folder) I came upon a subfolder named "Input "with a subfolder there named "Joysticks" - I thought I was on a roll when I found a folder there named "CH" !! There are 3 XML files there, one of them named pro-pedals-usb.

I'm afraid I just don't understand the lingo you folks use. If someone could give me a plain English translation/instruction I would be most grateful. How grateful? well... come to St. Augustine Airport (now Northeast Florida Regional Airport) or KSGJ in lingo I do understand and Your next two Flight Reviews are on me. If ya don't need a BFR (as we used to call 'em, come on down anyway and while the women go shopping we'll drink some serious beer! In all seriousness I will sincerely appreciate any help getting me up to speed on this stuff.

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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:01 am

Hi Gunner,

Sounds like you've just about worked it all out for yourself, and I think you've provided all the information required to fix it. As you've spotted, there is a config file for the rudder pedals already (I use the same ones). However, your pedals are being named by the computer as something the config file doesn't recognize, so FlightGear isn't able to match up the pedals to the right config file.

The good news is that it should be fairly easy to solve.

If you're confident editing XML files (you need to use notepad rather than word pad), then:
1) Edit the pro-pedals-usb.xml file in the CH directory, and change
Code: Select all
<name>CH Products  CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals </name>
to read
Code: Select all
<name>CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals</name>

2) In FlightGear select "File->Joystick Configuration, then press "Reset Configuration". This will reset all your joysticks (so you'll lose any other custom configuration you might have made), and should cause the right config to be picked up. If that doesn't work, try deleting the js0.xml file and try again..

BTW - if you haven't seen it before, the Joystick Configuration dialog should allow you to set up your joystick/pedals without having to touch any files.

Alternatively, if you're not happy editing XML files, give me a couple of days I'll send you a fixed configuration file. I'll also ensure that the new name is included in the next release of FlightGear so you'll have solved the problem for everyone else as well :)

Thanks for the offer of the BFR - I just had mine last month here in the UK on flexwing microlights (trikes), so I'm good to 2020.

-Stuart
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:13 pm

Hi Stuart! First, please let me thank you for helping - I sure hope I don't wear out my welcome with ya! Is that your bird in your avatar? I've always thought they would be awesome fun! Presupposing I'm still here come 2020 you should be able to talk your bride<?> into a trip to the states. Visit St. Augustine, the nations oldest city, visit Disney World (about 2 hours away) and all Orlando has to offer, a host couple with plenty of room... should be a lead pipe cinch! I'll also point out that I'm an old CIS guy, I had forums there as well as on MSN (when that came into existence) so my conventions. such as quoting, may not fit the protocols/culture here. If so, please tell me. I do want to fit in. Also I'm just 6 weeks past having a new right shoulder installed so my typing isn't yet back to par.

You are partially correct when you say:

>> Sounds like you've just about worked it all out for yourself <<

I did get the pedals working by changing joysticks.xml to read:

<PropertyList>


<js-named include="Input/Joysticks/CH/CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals.xml"/>

<js-named include="Input/Joysticks/CH/CH Flight Sim Yoke USB.xml"/>

</PropertyList>

Now the pedals work, the yoke operates aileron and elevator correctly but... none of the button functions I had set for the yoke work and I completely lost the CH Throttle Quadrant. In addition, in the File | Joystick Configuration screen only the CH Pro Pedals show up. I will keep fooling around with it... I d/led a "Notepad XML Editor but that kind of defeats me as well. I might can figger it out by trial and error... <sigh> getting old ain't for sissies ! The first thing I'm wondering about is if I need to put another "<PropertyList>" between the two names? I'm guessing assigning functions to the Throttle Quadrant switches is also done in the XML file I'll need to create?

Anyway... thanks again I'll await your reply and try to make whatever changes you suggest.
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:25 am

Hi Gunner,

Yes, that's my plane. It's great fun, particularly in Scotland which isn't so big that you need to fly everywhere at 100kts+. I live on the East coast, and can fly right over to the islands on the west coast for the day. Here are some photos from a trip in the summer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/147359724@N07/albums/72157683444488706. The main downside is that this time of year it's pretty cold - like riding a motorbike in sub-zero temperatures. Thanks very much for the offer to visit - I've only been once to Florida (for work) and didn't get to see the sights. My wife's sister lives in Saint Louis, and we keep considering a family trip to Florida.

Interesting that the Joystick Configuration menu is only detecting the pedals. I would have expected the dropdown at the top of the dialog to show each of the USB controllers so you can select between them. If it's not, it suggests that something's not right in the way that FlightGear is detecting your controllers, which is very odd. I had a quick look on the wiki and it mentions a problem with Windows reporting the same name for different controllers (see http://wiki.flightgear.org/Input_device#Multiple_devices_on_Windows). That might be what is happening here.

So, some questions:
1) Were the yoke and quadrant working OK before you changed the joystick.xml file?
2) Is the quadrant connected directly to the yoke, or is it a separate USB device?
3) Could you post the first couple of lines of output from js_demo.
4) If all the devices reported by js_demo have the same name, which device is the yoke and which are the pedals?

This should show which devices FG is detecting, which order they are in, and what their names are. With that, we should be able create a custom joysticks.xml file. I don't think we have a config file for the throttle quadrant already, so I expect you'll need to create that one.

Sorry this is taking so long to sort out - joystick configuration should really just work "out of the box", and we've put quite a bit of effort over the years to make that happen. Unfortunately we can't test every combination, and when it goes wrong, it's a real pain for users to sort out. I'm not at my FG computer right now, but will have some time on Friday and Sunday evening to dig into this more.

BTW - you definitely don't need to add extra PropertyList tags. They are just used at the start and the end of the file to indicate that it's a PropertyList XML file.

-Stuart
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby wlbragg » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:03 pm

Stuart, breathtaking photos. I gotta ask, what is the picture of with the opposing Horses Heads?
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:18 pm

It's called The Kelpies, and it's a set of large statues that have been put next to the Forth-Clyde canal near Falkirk in central Scotland. They are to represent the horses that towed the barges along the canal in the early 1800s. Interestingly, the canals were only commercially active for about 20 years - then railways got going and completely destroyed their business.

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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:06 pm

Stuart, wbragg is 150% correct, those photos are truly breathtaking. In addition to being a FG Guru you are also a photographer in every sense of the word. I'm truly envious. I'm going to sound totally ignorant here on geography, as well as XML language <G> -- our son-in-law was born in Motherwell (I hope I have the name right). That is his mom and dad's home though they immigrated to the States as a young couple. Interesting story,, at least to me, they signed on to do 5 years as a cook and butler with a wealthy couple in SE Florida. The deal was that after 5 years he would pay for whatever education they wanted for up to 4 years. When Bill was born they returned to Scotland so the oldest would have been born on the "old sod." They spent a couple of months at home before returning to Florida. Mom Tart went to a traditional college, Pop Tart (yes, the puns are endless) wanted to fly. He quickly found a job with a major company in Charlotte, NC. He did well enough there to retire as the Vice President of Transportation for a huge conglomerate that purchased his original company and got to fly some really neat equipment along the way. With all the type ratings he got his FAA ticket is 5 tickets long with maybe 4 or 5 type ratings on the last 4. He still loves going with me in the Archer - no "heavy iron snob" is he.

I hope you can work out a trip to Florida... good meeting point for you the family members in St. Louis even if it is more than half-way for you and your family.

OK, back to work <sound of whip cracking near my head>.

>> I would have expected the dropdown at the top of the dialog to show each of the USB controllers so you can select between them <<

That did occur up to the point I added the line "<js-named include="Input/Joysticks/CH/CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals.xml"/>" From that point on the dropdown only showed the pedals.

>> I had a quick look on the wiki and it mentions a problem with Windows reporting the same name for different controllers <<

Not a problem, the game controllers show all three and lets me test and calibrate them.

>> 1) Were the yoke and quadrant working OK before you changed the joystick.xml file? <<

Yes, more or less, all the axes (plural of "axis?) were working properly. I could program the buttons on the yoke but the Throttle Quadrant buttons didn't have any of the selections I wanted. Which is, I'm guessing, where the "Custom" function comes in. While the rudder was in the dropdown I couldn't assign the slider to rudder, only "rudder trim" was available.

>> 2) Is the quadrant connected directly to the yoke, or is it a separate USB device? <<

It's a separate USB connection..

>> 3) Could you post the first couple of lines of output from js_demo. <<

I'll try, I couldn't figure out how to save anything but a screen grab.

Joystick 0 "CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals"
Joystick 1 "CH Flight Sim Yoke USB"
Joystick 2 "CH Throttle Quadrant"
Joysticks 3 through 7 not detected

In "boxes" below that:

| Btns Ax:0 Ax:1 Ax:2 Ax:3 Ax:4 Ax:5 | Brns Ax:0 Ax:1 Ax:2 Ax:3 Ax:4 Ax:5 Ax:6 Ax:7 | Ax:0 Ax:1 Ax:2 Ax:3 Ax:4 Ax:5 |

>> 4) If all the devices reported by js_demo have the same name, which device is the yoke and which are the pedals? <<

I don't believe that is the case but stand ready to be corrected.

>> I don't think we have a config file for the throttle quadrant already, so I expect you'll need to create that one.<<

That's the part that makes me break out in hives and quake with terror! <BG>

<Ignorance mode full on> In an earlier post you wrote:

>> f you're confident editing XML files (you need to use notepad rather than word pad), <<
and then:

CODE: SELECT ALL
<name>CH Products CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals </name>

I have both the notepad.exe file as well as the XML Notepad I d/led from MS. Neither shows the "CODE SELECT ALL" in your illustrations. Not sure what the difference is or where to find what is is I need. I will point out, despite my advancing years, I dearly love learning new stuff, especially regarding anything aviation. I hope your patience doesn't wear thin with me.

No rush, I'm kind of enjoying fooling around with it although my frustration cup often overflows. You guys have done an incredible job with FG and I'm really looking forward to using it.

My most humble THANKS for your help.
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:02 pm

Hi Gunner,

Thanks for the complements, and yes, Motherwell is the right spelling. Cool story - it's always interesting to hear how Scots have emigrated and been successful. Interesting question is whether it's the character of the people who are prepared to take the chance and emigrate that makes them successful, or the environment in places like the US that offers them the opportunity. I suspect it's a combination of both.

Back on topic, I think I've worked out what's happened, and how we can solve it.

Here are the instructions:

1) The changes you made to joysticks.xml weren't quite right, but were enough to break the rest of the joystick configuration. We don't need to change that file, so we should undo those changes. If you don't have a backup copy of the file, you can get one from here: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fgdata/ci/next/tree/joysticks.xml?format=raw. This will be the same as the original, and should mean that FlightGear can detect the rest of the joystick XML files.

2) With the information you've provided, I've added the name for your pedals to the configuration file for the pedals. So download this file https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fgdata/ci/next/tree/Input/Joysticks/CH/pro-pedals-usb.xml?format=raw and copy it over the one in your Input/Joysticks/CH/ directory.

That should mean that when you start FlightGear your pedals and yoke will pick up the correct configuration and work. If they don't, go to File|Joystick Configuration, select them from the drop-down and press Reset Configuration.

That should leave the throttle quadrant to sort out. There are a couple of options here:
A) The Joystick Configuration dialog may give you enough control over the assignments you want by selecting the axis assignments. I made some changes a couple of months ago to allow setting of a second throttle, but I don't know if that will be in your version or not.
B) If that doesn't work, you can hand-craft a joystick configuration file. I can help you do that - this would be worthwhile because we can include it in the simulator for the benefit of other people as well.
C) I've emailed CH Products to ask if they have any reviewer copies of the quadrant that I could borrow to write a configuration file for. A number of years ago we had another user using Saitek products with a similar problem, and Saitek very kindly sent me some of their products to write configuration files for.

BTW - the "CODE: SELECT ALL" was was formatting the forum software has put around to indicate that the contained bit is code. So, it's just the <name>CH Products CH Pro Pedals USB Rudder Pedals </name> you were looking for.

Finally, you can consider yourself as having contributed to FG now: the information on the name of the pedals should mean that other people won't hit the same problem.

Best regards,

-Stuart
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:43 pm

Hey Stuart!

I changed the files as you suggested. Here's where we are. Yes, all 3 devices show in the | File | Joystick Configuration. Progress! However, The point of view "hat on the yoke no longer functions. I can assign functions to each of the buttons and switches on the yoke. The yoke does indeed control the ailerons and elevator. The rudder pedals show activity on axis 0 (left brake), axis 1 (right brake) and axis 2 (the slider) which should control the rudder. However the rudder itself doesn't give me so much as a wiggle or a wag. Same kind of situation exists with the Throttle Quadrant. In the joystick configuration menu the levers (axis 0 - 5) show changing data when operated. But they are not controlling the throttle, mix, or anything else in the sim.

One thing I might should have mentioned previously, I have physically removed the levers from the yoke. In the joystick configuration they are assigned as "None."

>> I've emailed CH Products to ask if they have any reviewer copies of the quadrant that I could borrow <<

Years ago I knew the owner and most of the family. Today... nada. If they don't send you one I'll send you mine and let you use that for a while.

>> Finally, you can consider yourself as having contributed to FG <<

If being a dummy about all this makes me a contributor I'll wear that with pride. All I did was manage to locate the smart guy who is willing to help out. Thanks though!

Hope it's an awesome weekend you are having!

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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:13 am

Hi Gunner,

Having a good weekend - hope you are too!

Very odd. It's tricky diagnosing these things remotely - I'll bet there's something we're not quite getting. Some further questions, all on the Joystick Configuration dialog

1) When you select the pedals from the dropdown, just underneath the dropdown it should list the file it's using for configuration, which should be file path ending in "pro-pedals-usb.xml". Does it? If not, what happens when you press "Reset Configuration"?
2) Still on the pedals, is it showing Axis 2 assigned to "Rudder"?
3) Do you have auto-coordination switched on in the launcher? This is designed for people without a set of pedals and would over-ride the rudder, though I'd expect to see some movement.
4) Apologies if you've already tried this one: When you select the throttle quadrant from the drop-down, have you tried assigning the axis using the dialog? For example, just to the right of Axis 0 there's a drop-down that should allow you to select "Throttle 1", which should assign that axis to control the first throttle. You'll need to assign each of the axes individually, as we don't have standard configuration for them.
5) Finally, what do you want the buttons on the quadrant to do ? I can try hand-crafting an XML file, and we'll see if that works.

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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:50 am

All right Stuart!

>> it should list the file it's using for configuration, which should be file path ending in "pro-pedals-usb.xml <<

Ha! Maybe a breakthrough!?! FG is installed on my D: drive, a decent sized SSD. The C: drive is a much smaller SSD so I don't install anything there that I just don't have to. By focusing my attention to the path and file name below the "Joystick' dropdown I see that it is using a file on the C: drive, specifically C:/users/gunner/AppData/Roaming/flightgear.org /input/joysticks/CH-Pro-Pedals-USB-Rudder-Pedals-.xml

<scratching head> The Yoke and Throttle Quadrant likewise reference that same folder on the C:\drive. I also don't understand the use of the "/" character in that display vs the "\" character. Please don't try to explain that right now... it would probably make my head explode!

>> what happens when you press "Reset Configuration"? <<

Bizarre things...
>> Still on the pedals, is it showing Axis 2 assigned to "Rudder"? <<

No, first it changes the path/filename to D:/Program Files/FlightGear 2017.3/Data/Input/Joysticks/Default/Joysticks.xml When I look at the yoke it is still pointing to the C: drive folder. A "refresh" there brings it to the D: drive and the CH folder under \Joysticks. Turns out there is a CH Throttle Quadrant xml file in the C: drive folder. At this point the yoke works correctly, the POV hat doesn't work, and the Throttle quadrant still is being ignored even though
it shows correctly in the joystick dropdown. I long ago made some modifications to the yoke so the throttle lever, etc. are not present.

>> Apologies if you've already tried this one: When you select the throttle quadrant from the drop-down, have you tried assigning the axis using the dialog? <<

No apology necessary but yes, the correct settings are in the dropdown for each axis.

>> Still on the pedals, is it showing Axis 2 assigned to "Rudder"? <<

Doh! <slapping forehead> I did not! That selection was buried at the top of the screen. I finally moved the dialog box down and there it was.

Progress, me thinks. Anxiously awaiting the next installment.
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Hi Gunner,

So, I think the pedals problem is solved, yes?

That leaves the PoV Hat and the throttle quadrant.

For the PoV Hat, I think the problem is that FG is detecting it as pair of axes rather than 4 buttons. I have the same thing on my CH stick. So, you need to identify which axis is being activated when you moving it horizontally and vertically. I expect it will be axis 5 & 6. When you move the PoV hat to the right, you should see one of the axes change to either 1.0 or -1.0. Select "View (horizontal)" for that axis. Then move the PoV hat up and down, and determine which axis is changing to 1.0 or -1.0. Select "View (vertical)" for that axis. You may find that one the axes is reversed, in which case select the checkbox just to the right in the "Inverted?" column.

For the throttle quadrant, I think I'll need to create a custom file. Out of interest, what aircraft are you using this on?

Thanks,

-Stuart
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:56 pm

Hi Stuart! I will try the things you suggest and let ya know. For the purposes of this testing I've been using the Cessna 172P Skyhawk (1981 model, detailed). When I fired it up the sim the Joystick Configuration files were all back to that location on the C: drive. POV worked,rudder worked (after you filled my clue bag with the location of that command setting, and the throttle quadrant still doesn't command anything in the sim although the axes are set correctly in the joystick configuration menu.So, after saving the original throttle quadrant file I copied the throttle quadrant file from the D: drive over to the C: drive. Boy, did that mess things up POV hat worked only in the horizontal axes, no rudder, and still no throttle. I changed things back and it made no difference. <heavy sigh> I feel like I'm dominating your time and the board. However, I'm determined to figger this out! Is there some kind of guide for the structure of the xml files? I would like to participate more than I am but what passes for my clue bag is empty/

As always, my profound thanks for your help.
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby stuart » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:16 am

Hi Gunner,

You mentioned a "throttle quadrant file" that you copied from the D: drive to the C: drive. What file was that, and where did you copy it to? If you copied it over the joysticks.xml file, then you'll need to restore the original joysticks.xml file. You can get a replacement copy from here: https://sourceforge.net/p/flightgear/fgdata/ci/next/tree/joysticks.xml?format=raw

FG uses XML for just about everything that can be configured - model animations, GUI, flight dynamics. See http://wiki.flightgear.org/Writing_Joystick_Code:_Part_1 for information on the joystick XML format. However, bear in mind that there are two different file types here:
- joysticks.xml just lists where to find the joystick configuration files and allows you to force FG to use a particular joystick configuration file. You should leave that unchanged for the moment I think - if you make changes to that it risks breaking all your joysticks, which may be what has happened here.
- The files under Input/Joysticks on your D: and C: drive are specific configuration files for a model of joystick. They have <name> tags that should match with the USB names.

What should be happening is this:
1) FG uses D:/Program Files/FlightGear 2017.3/Data/joysticks.xml to work out where to read joystick configuration from.
2) By default, it picks up a configuration file based on the USB Device name from your D: drive (D:/Program Files/FlightGear 2017.3/Data/Input/Joysticks/)
2) If you change anything through the Joystick Configuration dialog, then a customized file for the joystick is written into you're C: drive (C:/users/gunner/AppData/Roaming/flightgear.org /input/joysticks/), and FG will use that instead/
3) If you press the reset button, the customized file in the C: drive is deleted and the configuration file for that joystick in the D: drive is used again.

-Stuart
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Re: CH Rudder Pedals

Postby gunner » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:51 am

Hey Stuart! Well, I have the basics working after a fashion and I'm studying the tutorials on XML files. Here's the strange thing, the js_demo files has disappeared. Any ideas? I want to run it tonight and it's AWOL. When I start writing the file for the buttons on the throttle quadrant I'm guessing it should be placed in the C: directory? That's where everything seems to be read from now.

hope your week is going well,

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