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EDDF ground net  

Postby wkitty42 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:36 pm

Flightgear has a neat new feature... it will stop or suspend a subsystem if that subsystem causes too many exceptions... in the case of the AI traffic-manager subsystem, it will lead us to problematic ground nets so they can be fixed instead of causing FG to just crash outright...

here's an example...
Code: Select all
Traffic manager: Creating AIModel from:EDDF-EFHK.xml
Could not find parking for a 320 of flight type gate of airline     DLH at airport     EDDF
caught exception processing subsystem:traffic-manager
message:Bad arguments to findShortestRoute
Traffic manager: Creating AIModel from:EDDF-EHAM.xml
Could not find parking for a 320 of flight type gate of airline     DLH at airport     EDDF
caught exception processing subsystem:traffic-manager
message:Bad arguments to findShortestRoute
Traffic manager: Creating AIModel from:EDDF-EYVI.xml
Could not find parking for a 320 of flight type gate of airline     DLH at airport     EDDF
caught exception processing subsystem:traffic-manager
message:Bad arguments to findShortestRoute
Traffic manager: Creating AIModel from:EDDF-LDZA.xml
Could not find parking for a 319 of flight type gate of airline     CTN at airport     EDDF
caught exception processing subsystem:traffic-manager
message:Bad arguments to findShortestRoute
Traffic manager: Creating AIModel from:EDDF-SBGR.xml
Could not find parking for a 77W of flight type gate of airline     TAM at airport     EDDF
caught exception processing subsystem:traffic-manager
message:Bad arguments to findShortestRoute
(exceptionCount=5, suspending)

so this tells us that the ground net at EDDF has a problem with missing or not enough gates of type "gate" to add a flight... the result is that after five of these exceptions, the entire AI traffic-manager subsystem is shut down or suspended...

now that we know where to look and what the specific problem is, how easily and quickly can we fix it and get the fix into terrasync for distribution?

if the ground net is actually fine and the problem is one of too many AI craft being spawned because of the lack of filtering out duplicates and flights not leaving or arriving within X hours, then we have to look at the code and fix the problem there... especially if it is one of not enough places for the AI craft to spawn...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby gooneybird » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:36 pm:so this tells us that the ground net at EDDF has a problem with missing or not enough gates of type "gate" to add a flight... the result is that after five of these exceptions, the entire AI traffic-manager subsystem is shut down or suspended...


Does this mean no AI traffic will operate if this is invoked, if so I can see major problems ahead. As we currently have several thousand bad ground networks in FG this will probably come into effect on every flight.
Or am I missing something here :?
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby gooneybird » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:22 am

Is this active in 2018.1, I don't want to install it and suddenly find I have no AI traffic :(
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby Avionyx » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:27 pm

From my own experience with the current build of 2018.1 it doesn't seem to stop AI traffic, they are still operating on plenty of bad ground nets.
Great to hear of progress being made to improve the AI system though, good work wkitty

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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:25 pm

gooneybird wrote in Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 pm:
wkitty42 wrote in Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:36 pm:so this tells us that the ground net at EDDF has a problem with missing or not enough gates of type "gate" to add a flight... the result is that after five of these exceptions, the entire AI traffic-manager subsystem is shut down or suspended...


Does this mean no AI traffic will operate if this is invoked,

yes... if there are five exceptions in the code, the subsystem will be /stopped/shutdown/suspended... in my testing for Clive in the "Constant Crashes" topic, i flew the UFO for 24 hours... it wasn't until i went to Hawaii and realized there were no AI that i hunted through my log and found that EDDF had, once again, caused my AI subsystem to be shut down... the real kick in the teeth was that it had been shut down within an hour of my starting the test... it was one of the things that i specifically wanted included in the testing i was doing... missing it for 23 hours kinda sucks so i've asked for a window to be added to the notice... maybe restricted it to dev mode but it might be nice for the user to know that the subsystem has been shutdown, too... i see the notification really only valuable and informative to a developer running in dev mode, though...


gooneybird wrote in Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 pm:if so I can see major problems ahead. As we currently have several thousand bad ground networks in FG this will probably come into effect on every flight.

that's why i asked how quickly we can fix them... i don't care, at this point, about making them correct... we can do that later as we revisit them... i'd rather just fix them so they are workable and won't cause problems...

there's only 40 parking spaces in the EDDF.groundnet.xml file distributed by TerraSync... if this is an accurate count of parking spaces at EDDF then it would seem that the problem is in the AI code where it starts too many AI craft... especially in the beginning at sim startup... i've already spoken of the AI engine not filtering out duplicate callsigns doing the same flight... eventually the code works them out as it loads additional flights properly when their schedules come up... so if the count is correct, then we can move on to the AI code in the traffic manager... this might be the helpful push to get the patches applied that others have offered that do specifically filter out duplicate flights and only allowing those to be generated that are departing or arriving in the next X hours...

the above happened within an hour of my loading the sim and immediately taking off from EGKK on a heading bug heading of 105 degrees... EDDF isn't that far away at 490kts and i know i can be at LOWI or LSZH in an hour flying that heading and then turning right when close to or passing EDDF...

gooneybird wrote in Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:17 pm:Or am I missing something here :?

you're not... core is trying to prevent outright crashes and complaints about them... this protection prevents the crashes and allows the user to continue flying... the logged reports lead us to where the problem hides...
Last edited by wkitty42 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Location: central NC, USA
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:39 pm

gooneybird wrote in Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:22 am:Is this active in 2018.1, I don't want to install it and suddenly find I have no AI traffic :(

you will have AI until the subsystem is suspended because of too many exceptions being thrown... this is for all subsystems, i think... "too many" is currently defined as "5"... this one is in the traffic manager code because of a possible bad ground net... i don't know (yet) what other places an exception may be thrown so it may not all be bad ground nets...

i had to look and verify, before making my post, to see if i had an override in place for EDDF... in this case, i do not...
i only have these following ground net overrides in place and that only because they work the best for my AI spotting... these came from the mherweg repo... while i have all of them, these are the only ones i have in place to override what FG has by default in TerraSync...

Code: Select all
$ ls -lAR myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/*
myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/E:
total 4
drwxrwxr-x 4 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:20 G

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/E/G:
total 8
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:21 K
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:21 L

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/E/G/K:
total 452
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  49451 Aug 30  2017 EGKA.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  49957 Aug 30  2017 EGKB.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    242 Aug 30  2017 EGKC.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  15020 Aug 30  2017 EGKE.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup   5801 Aug 30  2017 EGKH.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 101870 Aug 30  2017 EGKK.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 148423 Aug  7  2017 EGKK.procedures.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup   6354 Aug 30  2017 EGKL.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    252 Aug 30  2017 EGKN.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  59871 Aug 30  2017 EGKR.groundnet.xml

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/E/G/L:
total 596
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    542 Aug 30  2017 EGLA.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    242 Aug 30  2017 EGLB.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  26017 Aug 30  2017 EGLC.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    401 Aug 30  2017 EGLD.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    393 Aug 30  2017 EGLF.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    690 Aug 30  2017 EGLG.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    385 Aug 30  2017 EGLJ.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    535 Aug 30  2017 EGLK.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 274379 Aug 30  2017 EGLL.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  92259 Aug 30  2017 EGLL.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 105615 Aug  7  2017 EGLL.procedures.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  50146 Aug 30  2017 EGLM.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    247 Aug 30  2017 EGLP.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  10857 Aug 30  2017 EGLS.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    249 Aug 30  2017 EGLT.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    385 Aug 30  2017 EGLW.groundnet.xml

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K:
total 16
drwxrwxr-x 3 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:23 A
drwxrwxr-x 3 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:22 C
drwxrwxr-x 3 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb 17 20:20 I
drwxrwxr-x 3 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:22 R

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/A:
total 4
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:24 T

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/A/T:
total 972
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 585562 Aug 30  2017 KATL.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 131105 Aug 30  2017 KATL.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 258562 Aug  7  2017 KATL.procedures.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    202 Oct  6  2016 KATL.twr.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    682 Aug 30  2017 KATW.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup   4090 Aug 30  2017 KATW.jetways.xml

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/C:
total 4
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:23 L

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/C/L:
total 260
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 46982 Aug 30  2017 KCLE.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 38511 Aug 30  2017 KCLE.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 18989 Aug  7  2017 KCLE.procedures.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  1912 Aug 30  2017 KCLL.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  1118 Aug 30  2017 KCLM.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  1286 Aug 30  2017 KCLS.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 67206 Aug 30  2017 KCLT.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 43904 Aug 30  2017 KCLT.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 26596 Aug 30  2017 KCLW.groundnet.xml

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/I:
total 4
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb 20 09:05 A

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/I/A:
total 680
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    946 Aug 30  2017 KIAB.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  88963 Aug 30  2017 KIAD.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  62985 Aug 30  2017 KIAD.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup    203 Feb 18 14:27 KIAD.twr.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 363990 Aug 30  2017 KIAH.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  86984 Aug 30  2017 KIAH.jetways.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  75785 Aug  7  2017 KIAH.procedures.xml

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/R:
total 4
drwxrwxr-x 2 myuser mygroup 4096 Feb  4 12:22 D

myflightgear/mySceneryOverrides/Airports/K/R/D:
total 228
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup 100373 Aug 30  2017 KRDD.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  32681 Aug 30  2017 KRDG.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup   2135 Aug 30  2017 KRDM.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  11344 Aug 30  2017 KRDR.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  45347 Aug 30  2017 KRDU.groundnet.xml
-rw-rw-r-- 1 myuser mygroup  29687 Aug 30  2017 KRDU.jetways.xml
Last edited by wkitty42 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:46 pm

Avionyx wrote in Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:27 pm:From my own experience with the current build of 2018.1 it doesn't seem to stop AI traffic, they are still operating on plenty of bad ground nets.

the subsystem will only be suspended IF an exception occurs... just having a bad ground net won't cause an exception... having a really broken ground net could...

Avionyx wrote in Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:27 pm:Great to hear of progress being made to improve the AI system though, good work wkitty

thanks, Alex... i didn't do that work, though... i'm just digging into it all and rooting about in it... zakalawe (James) and rominet (Florent) did these protections work... rominet mainly, AIR...



i hope i spelled their handles and names properly
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
User avatar
wkitty42
 
Posts: 5648
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Location: central NC, USA
Callsign: wk42
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby gooneybird » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:16 pm

Thanks guys I'll risk 2018.1 then.

wkitty42 - there's only 40 parking spaces in the EDDF.groundnet.xml file distributed by TerraSync



There should be a lot more than that, the groundnet used to work well there, it sounds like it has been overwritten by one of these autogenerated ones. I stopped submitting ground networks as they just kept being overwritten by untested autogenerated ones.

wkitty42 - i had to look and verify, before making my post, to see if i had an override in place for EDDF... in this case, i do not...
i only have these following ground net overrides in place and that only because they work the best for my AI spotting... these came from the mherweg repo... while i have all of them, these are the only ones i have in place to override what FG has by default in TerraSync...


I have about 200 of my own groundnets, some complete, some WIP, but most are quick creations for testing that bear no resemblance to RL.

Of course these problems would probably not be happening if thousands of untested groundnets hadn't been dumped into TerraSync.
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:19 pm

i'm not sure if i recall that or not... it may have been when the large pile of them was spoken about... i have those here but have removed them except for these few... i only have them for one or two places and just haven't removed the others... KATL in my set works great... in the other one, there's a lot of pileups i have to wade into and straighten out but then i have to stay there and keep kicking craft over what may be gaps in the routes... i don't know as i've not looked since i still haven't messed with getting WED operational here on my system... i think i've updated it several times but just never installed it... as i understand it, all the new stuff should be being done with WED...

i guess that now that we have them in distribution, we can clean them up and get them resubmitted so they are updated for everyone...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby gooneybird » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:37 pm

Try this for EDDF, it's the one from Terrasync. it's not a particularly good one but I've removed the errors in Taxidraw, hopefully! The original EDDF groundnet was more complete but needed updating and the new runway routes added.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/lwb1j700fit3grd/EDDF.groundnet.xml

I did the original KATL groundnet but I believe it's been replaced a couple times since then as the original positions were placed according to the airport scenery and not the real positions.

Even if you do manage to get a good groundnet from WED it still needs to be edited in Taxidraw to remove the errors and create pushback routes etc.
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:46 am

my understanding of Taxidraw and WED is that TD is not supported or at least doesn't support the new format version... everything is moving to WED for the new format version and the capabilities that that brings...

can you elaborate on the errors that WED generated ground nets have?

am i also understanding that WED doesn't have a way to show the push back routes? is that the main thing that TD is being used for (other than error removal)?

i'll try the EDDF ground net and see how it works out... thanks!

[EDIT] EDDF testing underway... hovering over tower at 750ASL... so far, so good... have the following 107 flights generated within the first <5 minutes of operation... all except five of them are at EDDF... now listening to a bunch of them starting up, pushing back, taxiing and departing... it is kinda funny that it takes longer for all the speech to be done that it does for the craft to go through their processes and depart :lol:

Code: Select all
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x130b85f0' firstflight 'FALSE' departure 'EDDF' radius '44' type 'gate' craft '' airline ''
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153df600' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '346' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154aa870' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154cb690' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154f9b30' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154f9750' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '40' type 'gate' craft '380' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1551f6a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x155206a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1553faf0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15554130' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1534aad0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156224b0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15694410' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156bcee0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15351600' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156cfd30' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156d0930' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156d1c50' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156e4010' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156de9d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x155659d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x156f3450' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4dff440' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'THY'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4dfe5a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4aa25d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '40' type 'gate' craft '388' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4e65220' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '24' type 'gate' craft '767' airline 'CFG'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4e923a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4f23400' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15509b90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1550ad90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4f37f80' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4f2bc90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1553d6e0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1555e2f0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4fd7330' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'BAW'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4fe8440' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x50106c0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '343' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1575bc60' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '343' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1578adb0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '15' type 'gate' craft 'E90' airline 'OAW'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x157ad280' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDN' radius '15' type 'gate' craft 'E90' airline 'OAW'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x157e9700' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDS' radius '15' type 'gate' craft 'E90' airline 'OAW'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15817670' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x158187d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1581ade0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x157dd0d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'MSR'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15882550' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15885a50' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15899eb0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153422a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'AFL'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15689f90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153422a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15689f90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153422a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15689f90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153422a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'cargo' craft '77F' airline 'UAE'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15689f90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x153422a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDL' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15689f90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDK' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15333710' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1535a490' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154ac940' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDL' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15868ea0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDN' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x4e9e9b0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x154daba0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDK' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b5f570' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '320' airline 'PGT'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b9f250' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b64f80' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b66ad0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '18' type 'gate' craft '738' airline 'SXS'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b68400' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15b64010' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1405e8b0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x14061670' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x14061100' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455d8f0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455f0a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x14067270' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455fb90' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455f3f0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '30' type 'gate' craft '333' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455f3f0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455fdf0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x14560290' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x14560360' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455fdf0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455fdf0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x1455fdf0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15bed970' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cab530' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cb3500' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cb51b0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cb32f0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cb51b0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cc0ca0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cb6600' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cdc130' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cc9720' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15cddb30' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15ce0550' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15ce95d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '321' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15ce7ed0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '17' type 'gate' craft '319' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d25680' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d224a0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d26000' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '32' type 'gate' craft '744' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d27690' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d30300' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d30ab0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '14' type 'gate' craft '733' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d357d0' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'
AIFlightPlan::createPushBack: aircraft '0x15d48c30' firstflight 'TRUE' departure 'EDDF' radius '34' type 'gate' craft '74H' airline 'DLH'


NOTE: the empty one at the top appears to be me... AIUI, there's a ""fake"" AI created for our own craft... more information on that later if necessary...
[/EDIT]
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby BecOzIcan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:41 pm

wkitty42 wrote in Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:46 am:my understanding of Taxidraw and WED is that TD is not supported or at least doesn't support the new format version...


To be precise, Taxidraw cannot interpret APT.DAT elements in any other format than 850

BUT

This only means that it cannot render aprons and taxiways from the most recent APT.DAT. (850 did not include any beziers curves and if you load an 850 airport in TD you will see aprons and taxiways rendered as rectangles (See below 850 RKSI)

BUT

This has no impact on groundnets creation -we are only talking here about the "background image" formed by 850 APT DAT elements

SO I you run Taxidraw right now and decide to create a groundnet from scratch, it's easy enough to simply'
1. Add manually the runways in taxidraw (by using the values found in in WED for the Centre LAT / LON, heading and length of each runway
2. Add each route node (Centreline interesection) as a new Taxidraw node, using the lat / lon for the equivalent point in WED .

Alternatively (the solution Goonebird mentionned), some python scripts do convert automatically the WED centrelines into groundnets nodes and segments which you can then import in Taxidraw to refine (and add the pushback routes)

Hope this helps

Cheers
Ian

Image
Last edited by BecOzIcan on Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Current Projects: AI Traffic, Models & Liveries
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby gooneybird » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:42 pm

So far so good, fingers crossed :wink:

I've not tried the EDDF groundnet myself I just run it through the "verify ground network" in Taxidraw and fixed the errors that came up.

Taxidraw doesn't support the new scenery format but is still usable for groundnets you just have to input the data directly from other sources.

Wed is for Xplane and doesn't export any groundnet data that FG recognises with out using one of the converters.

The problem is with the converted data, It creates several errors that can stop either the AI or FG working, as we have been seeing.
These errors include,

no pushback routes,
no gate type or size,
no airline allocation,
no "on Runway" nodes set,
duplicate or no taxi routes,
disconnected routes or parking position,
orphan nodes,
There are probably more but I can't think of them at the moment.

While some of these errors don't stop FG working they do stop the AI operating correctly. The only way to fix these is to use Taxidraw.

I use Taxidraw all the time for my groundnets, I do use WED but mainly to copy paste data into Taxidraw.

Oops, Ian just beat me to it ;)
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Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:52 pm

thanks to both of you... i'm still wrapping my head around it all... i hope there's enough room to hold all the new information packages in there! :lol: :mrgreen:
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
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Location: central NC, USA
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Version: git next
OS: Kubuntu 14.04.5

Re: EDDF ground net

Postby wkitty42 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:16 pm

FWIW: the speech still hasn't stopped reading off the AI craft traffic... there's been four new flights created since i grabbed the above list... i've got a couple of craft stuck at the far end of 7R/25L (away from the heli pad) and another couple stuck at the other end of 7C/25C near the entry to 18/36... i think, in this case, it is probably that the traffic manager has just misplaced their strip in the rack... i just heard one of them being given clearance to taxi but have not heard them receive a "hold position" or "continue taxiing" message... will have to scan the log for the "{atc}" messages and see if there was either of those messages sent to them...

[time passes]

ahhh... the one craft did get a "hold position" but not a "continue" message...
Code: Select all
{atc} TK1618. Ready to Start up.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground, This is TK1618. Position . Information quebec. IFR to SABIHA GOKCEN. Request start-up.
{atc} TK1618. Start-up approved. quebec correct, runway 25L, fly runway heading , squawk 2201. For push-back and taxi clearance call 121.80. Frankfurt am Main-Ground control.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Start-up approved. quebec correct, runway 25L, fly runway heading , squawk 2201. For push-back and taxi clearance call 121.80. TK1618.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Switching to 121.80. TK1618.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. With you. TK1618.
{atc} TK1618. Roger. Frankfurt am Main-Ground.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Request push-back. TK1618.
{atc} TK1618. Push-back approved. Frankfurt am Main-Ground.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Ready to Taxi. TK1618.
{atc} TK1618. Cleared to taxi. Frankfurt am Main-Ground.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Cleared to taxi. TK1618.
{atc} TK1618. Hold Position. Frankfurt am Main-Ground.
{atc} Frankfurt am Main-Ground. Holding Position. TK1618.

a swift 15kt boot to TK1618's backside got him moving again and now he's taking off... gotta kick the one that was behind him and maybe the others... that's how my AI spotting game has worked... watch them move and if they get stuck, give'em a boot ;)

now, if we could figure out why they get stuck and not commanded to move on...
"You get more air close to the ground," said Angalo. "I read that in a book. You get lots of air low down, and not much when you go up."
"Why not?" said Gurder.
"Dunno. It's frightened of heights, I guess."
User avatar
wkitty42
 
Posts: 5648
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:46 pm
Location: central NC, USA
Callsign: wk42
Version: git next
OS: Kubuntu 14.04.5

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